Martket place rant

[-hanko]

BTW, in addition to being a retired LEO, I am also a retired attorney with the ability to return to active practice in DC & CA anytime I wish to do so.

BTW, the attorney part was not at all surprising. Welcome to the Golden State where you can kiss both your word and common ethics goodbye.

[Paperchasin]

That's not what I said and that's not what the seller did.

If it actually were an auction, the seller would have been obligated to sell it to the highest bidder, even if a higher bid were received later. That's the law as it pertains to public auctions. If it had been an auction, the rejected bid was not the high bid and so the seller did not have to accept it.

In this case, the seller privately received a bid which he accepted contingent on payment but then received a higher bid which he decided to accept instead.

In order for a contract to be legally binding, there must be mutual agreement and consideration exchanged. Consideration is accepted in the form of money or a forebearance (that is, a promise NOT to do something in exchange for the promise of performance offered; in this case, the sale of the gun to the buyer at the price specified).

However, there was no money or forebearance exchanged in this situation, so the seller was NOT obligated to sell the gun for the lesser bid which he apparently which was not solicited by him, apart from the 4sale ad that he posted publicly earlier. So, IMO, there was no binding contract and the seller did nothing "wrong" legally in this situation. Could he have handled the matter more diplomatically? Perhaps but it was not a legal necessity for him to do so.

BTW, in addition to being a retired LEO, I am also a retired attorney with the ability to return to active practice in DC & CA anytime I wish to do so.

Exactly what he vvvv Hanko said... Sometimes we need to put all of the legal stuff aside and just use common sense.

BTW, the attorney part was not at all surprising. Welcome to the Golden State where you can kiss both your word and common ethics goodbye.

[Paperchasin]

You can dislike how the seller in this scenario handled the matter but, in fact, he did nothing legally wrong.

The OP created this thread because he wanted to rant about the situation he encountered and he's certainly entitled to do that. However, each person's ethics (or sense or "right" and "wrong") may or may not be the same as others and just because the seller "violated" your sense of ethics doesn't mean that the seller necessarily acted improperly.

There are no forum rules that I know of that the seller violated either. If you think that such rules should be adopted that binds a seller to accept the 1st offer tendered and verbally accepted even w/o the exchange of binding consideration, then those rules should be adopted and made plain, as well as the penalties if they are violated.

However, absent such rules and whether you all like it or not, we are a nation established on the basis of laws (the most important being, the Constitution of the United States) and w/o laws there would be no country, only anarchy. So, IMO, having not violated any law or forum rules that I know of, I do not think that the seller did anything wrong, even though I agree that he could have handled the situation "better."

I don't think anyone ever claimed that the seller did anything illegal. During your work as an attorney and as LE, I can see why everything is either legal or it's not. But in reality things can be legal and unethical and/or illegal and ethical. It's pretty obvious that the definition of right and wrong vary from person to person (as evidenced by posts in this thread). And that's fine with me. I appreciate the OPs rant, it has shown me who shares the same ethics as I do and identified those that dont. I'm all about free market and now I know to deal with and who to avoid. In the end, I think we are in agreement that the seller didn't handle it well and that is all that matters to me.

[Killer Bee]

You can dislike how the seller in this scenario handled the matter but, in fact, he did nothing legally wrong.

The OP created this thread because he wanted to rant about the situation he encountered and he's certainly entitled to do that. However, each person's ethics (or sense or "right" and "wrong") may or may not be the same as others and just because the seller "violated" your sense of ethics doesn't mean that the seller necessarily acted improperly.

There are no forum rules that I know of that the seller violated either. If you think that such rules should be adopted that binds a seller to accept the 1st offer tendered and verbally accepted even w/o the exchange of binding consideration, then those rules should be adopted and made plain, as well as the penalties if they are violated.

However, absent such rules and whether you all like it or not, we are a nation established on the basis of laws (the most important being, the Constitution of the United States) and w/o laws there would be no country, only anarchy. So, IMO, having not violated any law or forum rules that I know of, I do not think that the seller did anything wrong, even though I agree that he could have handled the situation "better."

actually, this did violate the forum marketplace rules..

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=810593

6) We do not allow for the auctioning off of items in the For Sale forums

9) For Sale threads must have a price listed.
If you are unsure of what you want to ask for an item list a price you think is slightly higher than what you want to get and simply state, 'willing to negotiate'. You can also add 'OBO' (Or Best Offer) after your projected price. While this means you are willing to entertain offers it is NOT a license to auction, neither does it mean that it is acceptable to take a higher offer after you have agreed to a price and a deal. The listing price must be one the seller would accept if a buyer were to make an offer at that price. Editing the original post to raise the price after an offer at that price has been made creating a 'hidden auction' is unacceptable. The seller may accept an offer higher than the price listed, either from motivated buyer or due to unique circumstance such as special shipping requirements providing no offer or deal has been made at the listed price prior to the higher offer.


while it may take some level of morality to enforce these, they are still forum rules..

the op has copies of text messages from the seller clearly indicating he would accept $400..

forum rules violated, case closed, whether illegal or not which I don't recall anyone mentioning besides you..

op has just as much right to rant about it as the seller had the right to get away with breaking forum rules..

maybe folks should focus their energy to fixing issues rather than berating folks that stand up to them..

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=22563551&postcount=15

[lamduh]

OP, it looks like you and the seller agreed on price and FFL but didn't firm up date/time.

IMO, a deal is reached when price, FFL and date/time are agreed to by both parties.

It was agreed upon. Ammo bros 12pm on saturday. I told him i could do same day but he couldnt

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[caliberetta]

Oon another gun forum which I'm a member, which is also privately owned, the owner has no problem banning someone like this seller is described - someone who is only a member to sell Ann's doesn't contribute.

Maybe Kestryl could consider cleaning up how his forum is used and its members' who abuse the forum?

Actually a member that participates honestly in the Marketplace without posting anything else is a very valuable member.

What does this member bring? Liquidity (He brings inventory to sell and money to buy).

That is the lifeblood of a Market. Without it, the marketplace will be DEAD.

[SoCal326]

Martket place rant

Is it really that black and white for you? If we agree to meet somewhere for a transaction and I don't show up, I've done nothing wrong right?? Since nothing ever exchanged hands? After you wait for an hour I finally respond and let you know that I simply changed my mind but decided not to tell you....

[SoCal326]

Martket place rant

[SoCal326]

Martket place rant

Read the bold parts and buy and sell accordingly. Simple.



With the attitude on this post, you'd have already been banned on a number of gun forums.

...
I'd also add it to Kestryll's list of buyers / sellers to avoid.

[DDM4556]

Look at how long I’ve been here. I haven’t been banned because I engage in honest respectful discourse. I’ve bought and sold a few things and it went great. If I have to back out then I immediately communicate that to the other party. That’s all I ask for and expect. deals fall through. It’s the nature of business.

Sounds like backtracking. If all you ask and expect is honest and respectful discourse then you should throw out all of your prior comments.

I’ve bought and sold here and I have never flaked. Nor do I keep people waiting around. It’s a basic code of ethics.

I have agreed to deals and been offered more by people looking to intercept. The reply is, “gun is SPF, if it falls through I’ll let you know”. That’s the correct answer.

It’s really quite simple. OP had a deal (a virtual handshake) and the seller flaked. Not illegal, but it’s a dick move. If you don’t understand that then you might to check which team you’re playing for.

[H K corporate assassin]

Most people just aren't reliable anymore. Just another sign of the times we live in unfortunately.

[Rogerbutthead]

It hasn't changed that much. I remember going to a gun show in Tennessee in the early 90's. One seller there wouldn't even acknowledge my presence - I would guess because I have an Asian face. Can't force people to sell to you or at least I wouldn't waste my time like that.

[RestrictedColt]

So i left neutral feedback and the seller respond back and stated it was a poor choice on my part and stated nothing was concrete. What do you guys think

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If "I will take 400" and setting up a time & place isn't concrete I don't know what is. I initially thought he was a little douchey for backing out of the deal, that response puts him solidly into the douchebag category.

[stormvet]

What are you talking about the buyer did not flake the seller flaked, try to stay on topic. You are injecting made up scenarios, stick to the facts they matter.

[SoCal326]

I'm not backtracking on anything. I stand by what I said. People need to grow a backbone. Life doesn't always go your way. Deals fall through and either party can back out at any time for any reason but communication is key. If we expect to be treated with kid gloves then every disappointment in life hits us 10 times harder.

"Check which team I'm playing for"? What does that even mean?