Gun control argument with liberal in laws

[Den60]

I am surprised that no one has commented on the reaction of the teacher. Whenever I am around her she likes to talk about her job of teaching kids and how she likes to see them develop intellectually. She is really into teaching and is conscientious about her profession. However, when it comes to securing her school from a shooting, she just reverts to doing her assigned task, and despite the gravity of the situation, she puts no thought into the consequences of her actions. It never occurred to her that her actions may endanger the kids she so highly values. For someone who is educated, and who has a job to increase the thinking ability of her students, she has an extremely myopic understanding of her actions in a life and death situation.

Unfortunately, deep thinking and public education aren't compatible.

[ACfixer]

The liberals (and even the not-so-liberal but on the fence with guns) I know, I take them shooting. Most that have gone shooting with me are now enthusiasts to some degree. Once they know that guns can be safe and useful, they often times see things differently.

[RandyD]

Is she actually teaching? Encouraging independent thought? Or is she simply indoctrinating?

The reason they can't conceptualize a proper defense, is because it's contrary to their belief system that they would have to defend against evil. In their utopian world, evil doesn't exist. Why do you think hollywood so strenuously preaches moral and ethical ambiguity and relativism in their films and TV shows? So you're asking her to confront a lifetime of false narrative - which would make her whole world come crashing down.

They think the only evil in the world are conservatives, thus equating us with nazi's. And everyone knows it's OK to kill nazi's.

I believe you are correct. There has to be an explanation to the process they use to reach conclusions, and your's is the best I have read.

[RandyD]

I know you enjoyed yourself but trying to reason with a liberal is like trying to reason with a two year old who wants something he hasn't earned.

I know the die hard liberals will never change their minds, but those kids, my nieces, who were listening, are forming their opinions, and that is who I was trying to connect with and persuade.

[maggie06]

I am surprised that no one has commented on the reaction of the teacher. Whenever I am around her she likes to talk about her job of teaching kids and how she likes to see them develop intellectually. She is really into teaching and is conscientious about her profession. However, when it comes to securing her school from a shooting, she just reverts to doing her assigned task, and despite the gravity of the situation, she puts no thought into the consequences of her actions. It never occurred to her that her actions may endanger the kids she so highly values. For someone who is educated, and who has a job to increase the thinking ability of her students, she has an extremely myopic understanding of her actions in a life and death situation.

I see your point about thinking outside the box, but a person who has no military or security training can only rely on procedures outlined to them by supposedly smarter people.

The game is already lost once an active shooter gets in the door and doesn't care if he lives or dies.

Part of the answer lies in the Israeli model of teachers with AR's. But they live in reality while we live in fantasy

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[RandyD]

Unfortunately, deep thinking and public education aren't compatible.

I have run into this at my daughter's high school and her former grade school. I was attending a soccer game at my daughter's grade school several years ago, and another father, who was a former SEAL, and I were talking about school security. This was about a year after the Sandy Hook School shooting, where the kids were corralled by the teachers making them easier targets. The principal was at the game, and she engaged us, and it was agreed the former SEAL and myself would do a threat assessment of the school and provide the principal with some recommendations.

Our number one recommendation was to be prepared to open the gates of the school and playground to allow the kids to flee to safety. We presented this to the principal and vice principal and their jaws hit their chests. They refused to accept our recommendation on the grounds that they would loose control and accountability of the students. The other father and I, in unison, said we would rather locate our daughters hours later, alive, instead of being given, timely notice that they are dead. Their response was that they would either take the children and line them up on the playground or put them in classrooms. That school is located on a corner, and there are three other schools across the street, and we proposed to work an mutual assistance agreement with the other schools that students could flee to the other schools in the event of a school shooting. Again, this conflicted with their world view, that they would magically create order in a chaotic situation.

In the end, we took our daughters to the school after hours, and went through scenarios, and instructed them what to look for and where to flee, and to disregard the instructions of any school staff members, in the event of a school shooting.

[MJB]

Well done Randy!

[ac398]

I can't wait till I have to start spending some time around my gfs ultra liberal family. So far I've avoided them pretty well mainly because my gf doesn't want to put us in the same room together if she doesn't have to.
But I've seen them enough I think they're going to get the constitution free zone republic of California t-shirt or the resist tyranny with the ca flag upside down tshirt the next time I have to see them. It is fun watching their heads explode. They get mad and argue amongst themselves over who's the most liberal.

[CornStrategy]

I am surprised that no one has commented on the reaction of the teacher. Whenever I am around her she likes to talk about her job of teaching kids and how she likes to see them develop intellectually. She is really into teaching and is conscientious about her profession. However, when it comes to securing her school from a shooting, she just reverts to doing her assigned task, and despite the gravity of the situation, she puts no thought into the consequences of her actions. It never occurred to her that her actions may endanger the kids she so highly values. For someone who is educated, and who has a job to increase the thinking ability of her students, she has an extremely myopic understanding of her actions in a life and death situation.

As you said in a later post, it's about order. Teachers want to maintain order in chaotic situations, even when order runs counter to their students' safety.

When my younger son told me what happened in his school's "robber drills" (active shooter drills), I got pretty mad: they're asked to line up like ducks in a row, then wait. I told him to do what happens in the wild: when the lions come, the gazelles scatter in every direction. Don't wait to be eaten.

[MJB]

Don't wait to be eaten...... love it!

[ojisan]

I am surprised that no one has commented on the reaction of the teacher. Whenever I am around her she likes to talk about her job of teaching kids and how she likes to see them develop intellectually. She is really into teaching and is conscientious about her profession. However, when it comes to securing her school from a shooting, she just reverts to doing her assigned task, and despite the gravity of the situation, she puts no thought into the consequences of her actions. It never occurred to her that her actions may endanger the kids she so highly values. For someone who is educated, and who has a job to increase the thinking ability of her students, she has an extremely myopic understanding of her actions in a life and death situation.

I think this kind of person has not ever been through any kind of bad event and does not even consider it possible in their world.
They will not plan for it because they don't want to admit that it could happen to them, or that they might be directly responsible for not only their own lives but the lives of others.
Lock the door and hide is as far as they can go.

[rugershooter]

Treat them politely.
Teach them if you can.
Remind them who's house they will run to if SHTF.
-----------------
Northridge earthquake:
My older son's best friend was staying overnight.
The earthquake hit my area hard and it was two days before the friend's parents came by to pick up their son.
The parents are kinda anti-gun.
I try to avoid the topic around them, they know I am a gun guy.
A month later I was surprised to hear the father say: "Well, of course we were worried about our son because of the crazy stuff that might happen in the days following a big quake. But we knew you had guns and would keep him safe".
So there you have it.

I find it interesting that people who are anti gun just assume that the gun owners will protect them.
I get interesting responses when I tell people that they're on their own if things go bad. For some, it's just a way to make a point. But for others, I definitely wouldn't help.

[MJB]

I find it interesting that people who are anti gun just assume that the gun owners will protect them.
I get interesting responses when I tell people that they're on their own if things go bad. For some, it's just a way to make a point. But for others, I definitely wouldn't help.

They think the world is perfect and everyone loves one another......then they wake up

[Svashtar]

[jeremiah12]

The main problem is most people have no idea what to do when the SHTF because they want to believe they are safe and secure at all times. Most teachers cannot fathom that in an active shooter situation, they may have take actions that will put a few students at risk so they can better protect a greater number of students.

In my county, all schools have or will go through active shooter drills with local law enforcement agencies under the supervision of an FBI team that has studied school shooting situations. There are times when students who do not follow the rules will get locked out and be left outside. Once doors are locked, they stay locked because perps can use a student to gain access to a locked room. There are times when the student pounding on the door begging to get in turns out to be the shooter.

There are situations when it is better to run off of campus. In those situations, the wounded will be left behind and medical people will not be allowed to treat the wounded until the campus is cleared. The reason, some shooters will purposely wound a few and then wait for others to help the wounded and then attack the people helping the wounded.

My school went through the active shooter training last winter and I was amazed at the mistakes many of the teachers made even after going through a 2-day training before putting what they supposedly learned into practice. The local law enforcement agencies used real guns, though they were unloaded, to make it appear more real and most of the teachers lost it.

Unless you have been in a real situation where real bullets have been flying towards you or some other serious situation where death was a real possibility, you cannot say for certain how you will react. Then throw in a classroom full of students who will mostly panic and not follow directions, with many just freezing from sheer panic, and students become their worst enemy.

Several years ago, when I was teaching at a middle school, I was in a lock down situation because a drug deal went bad in the neighborhood and the gun battle participants hopped the fence onto the school grounds and chased each other around the school for 5 minutes. My 7th graders kept looking out the window to watch the gun battle. Most of my students were from the hood and this part of their daily life. I taught science in a former art room that had a kiln in a back room. The door to the kiln room was a heavy steel door and that door locked. I could not get many of my students into that room because they wanted to watch the gun battle even though several bullets came through the windows and wall of the room.

I finally said forget this and those that would go into the kiln room I took and I locked myself in there with them. When it was over, I noted the 14 or so students that refused follow my directions, called their parents, and then suspended them from class for two days for not following my directions and putting themselves in danger. Several parents were upset but they had to agree with me after I made it a safety issue.

As for shooting back, in most active shooting situations, as a teacher, even if I could legally carry on campus, I do not have any legal protection if I miss and hit an innocent student. In fact, I learned the hard way this year, if I use any sort of force to stop a student from harming another student or to defend myself from bodily harm, the district can take action against me that requires me to hire an attorney to keep my job. That gets very expensive. Fortunately my union paid for the attorney. After 3 months and 50 hours of attorney time and a couple of hearings it was made very clear to me, as a teacher, I am only required to contact an administrator if a student is in physical danger from another person. If I take any action myself, I am responsible for all legal liabilities. If I take no other action other than contact the administration and wait for directions, then the district assumes all liabilities.

So even if I could legally carry at school, I would not use it to defend students because the district would have the right to fire me and take action that would ultimately cause me to loose my credential. If I do not defend my students, then I have no personal liability. All I have to do is attempt to lock my door or if I believe the shooter is far enough away, get my students out the back gate of the school.