LEO training, he needs help. BIG TIME!

[kato4moto]

A 7 MOA group, fired offhand, at 25 yards is a 1.75" group. I don't believe I've ever shot that well.

A 3 MOA group at the same 25 yards means all rounds impacted within a
0.75" circle. No round was more than 0.375" from the point of aim. I could not even aspire to such accuracy.

Cordially,
Natty

Agreed. If you can do that with a handgun, you belong on an Olympic shooting team and should be shooting for a living!

[Bryan16]

Quite a few people in my academy were scared to even fire a weapon. Some just barely passed the qualification. Just because we completed the academy doesn't mean we become marksmen. It will get you qualified quarterly but if you want to become better you have to practice as you all know.

[Bryan16]

You never know till shtf how you'll react, but the few times it has it's all muscle memory.

That's how I was trained as well. Practice enough so it becomes muscle memory.

[Dirtbiker]

Being able to use your pistol under stress is the key. Take a look at most officer involved shooting in the US. Bad guy usually hit or dead, officer usually not hit or dead.

When I was a LEO being in excellent physical condition is FAR more important than being an extra good shot. Get in one fight with a suspect and you will understand where I'm coming from.

[mif_slim]

Agreed. If you can do that with a handgun, you belong on an Olympic shooting team and should be shooting for a living!

I think if you guys read the entire thing I corrected myself by saying its a 7" group not MOA.

[sgtbuck]

To pass a qual at my department you could not have a miss off the suspect target. All rounds had to be on the suspect. Any misses caused you to fail. So you do not have to be perfect you just have to account for every round you shoot and hit the suspect that is on the target. From what you stated 7" at 25 yds is not to bad. Again I will say it's a whole lot differnt when somone is shooting back at you. These men and woman are not superman. Most are avarage everyday people that do a thankless job that most people would never do. There are good ones and bad ones and those that can shoot really good and those that can't. It's funny because you always hear about the Cop that messed up or the Cop that did somthing wrong. I guess it makes good news, but you never hear that on last nights grave yard shift two burglary supects were caught, five DV supects were stopped from beating there wifes or husbands, three drunk drivers were taken off the road, two gang members were disarmed and put in jail and a lost kid was found. and thats not including the reg patrol stuff. That is seven Officers in one 10 hour shift and that was a slow shift. You can double that on the weekend. Most every Officer I know would put themselfs in the line of fire to protect you or anyone one else from danger whether they are a good shot or not and not even stop to ask you if you trust them 100% or not they just do it. Most people run away from danger. Police Officers run towards it again even if there not the best shot. I have seen Officers put themselfs in harms way to protect even the hard core gang banger or street person.

I have never run into a Officer that did not know crap about shooting as you put it. They might not be an expert shot but they can handle there guns and tools.

Also your a great friend to your buddy to be writing neg stuff about his shooting capabilities.

Could we all stand for more range time, yes we could but with all the bugets being cut I do not see that happing.

You stated "Most of the time I do trust our LEO but with recent events happening, it does make one think." Nothing like jumping on the band wagon with a few negative issues that have been put into the news. Have you ever noticed how one side the network news reports stuff like this. Kinda like how they report gun issues and every gun is an evil assult weapon.
I saw a video a few years ago of an Officer punching a handcuffed suspect in the face while next to his Police car. Everyone wanted the Officer to be fired and put in jail. The video really did look bad for the Officer. What that video did not show was the suspect had the Officer by the balls and was twisting and pulling. The news never reported that part.

One last thing run a 440 at a full sprint then do as many pull up as you can, then jump a six foot wall all with out stopping to rest, then shoot for qual and see how well you do? This was an actual test my department put us through before I retired.

[Bobula]

I think if you guys read the entire thing I corrected myself by saying its a 7" group not MOA.

Still says MOA, and 7" grouping @ 25 yards is respectable. Typically at that distance you wouldn't be engaging with a handgun, if at all possible.

[grammaton76]

You've probably touched on the core of the problem. I'm convinced there are just TOO MANY hours of "getting cats out of trees" training at the Police Academy!!

Combine the two. In order to get the cat out of the tree, you must first be able to hit the cat.

[mif_slim]

Still says MOA, and 7" grouping @ 25 yards is respectable. Typically at that distance you wouldn't be engaging with a handgun, if at all possible.

lol

here post #4:

that is my bad, its 7" groups at 25 yards. a 7" group at 25 yards is good, when he's calm and firing, but Im sure that group will open up under stress and pressure, maybe to 14" who knows...

One last thing run a 440 at a full sprint then do as many pull up as you can, then jump a six foot wall all with out stopping to rest, then shoot for qual and see how well you do? This was an actual test my department put us through before I retired.

Did something similar to that when I was training with the Treasury Dept. It was fun. Oh, and I shot well too. 2nd in the class of 12.

What sucks is that they put you through that then you retired. :P jk.

[sgtbuck]

Everybody retires sooner or later, I felt I had done my time and went on to somthing different. We had to qual every four months. Every session our range masters used to do all kinds of weired stuff like that. One time I was doing a live fire room clearing and the suspet dummy had a leather jacket with a gun pointing towards the door and a ballon in the jacket tied to a string. When I shot it the ballon poped and the dummy suspect fell to the ground. Scared the crap out of me. I thought I broke there training device. Most Officer involved shooting take place withing 10 feet or less. At least that what I was told and that is what happend to me. It was more point and shoot and all automatic no time to really think or aim. It was all about training. #1 rule go home at the end of your shift.

lol

here post #4:





Did something similar to that when I was training with the Treasury Dept. It was fun. Oh, and I shot well too. 2nd in the class of 12.

What sucks is that they put you through that then you retired. :P jk.

[mif_slim]

Yeah, thats what sucks, no one can ever escape time...alot of our training was 3 yards to 7 yards too, like you said, most engagements occur within that distance. We had a guy come train with us because he had a gun fight in the middle of a parking lot and they were about ~8 feet away from eachother...he said all his 11 shot missed.

[sgtbuck]

Yeah, thats what sucks, no one can ever escape time...alot of our training was 3 yards to 7 yards too, like you said, most engagements occur within that distance. We had a guy come train with us because he had a gun fight in the middle of a parking lot and they were about ~8 feet away from eachother...he said all his 11 shot missed.

Yep the same thing happened at my Department to a couple of Officers. The mind plays funny tricks on you when your in a life or death type of situation. I used to teach the Officer survival class at the academy back in the early 90s. If you want to really get into what happens when a Officer or Military person gets involved in a life or death situation there is a book by Col. Grossman called on killing. When my son got back from Iraq I got it for him to help with some of the side effects of taking another human life. I had been to one of his lectures and read the book myself. Its a very eye opening read.

[El Gato]

I am one of the range staff at our department (130 armed probation officers) - I wear my vest while on the range.. in the summer... in bakersfield... some officers are excellent shooters and can handle crisis well.. it shows up in other things besides shootings.. just fights or radio traffic... others not so much... I wear a vest on the range in bakersfield in the summer... enough said?

Ok maybe not... the previous post about some officers not taking the gun seriously +1 on that....some are simply afraid of the gun and of people... one of our female officers drew down on a guy the other day cause he was standing in front of her and was attempting to run past her.. she was afraid he was going to hit her so she was going to shoot him... calmer heads prevailed... it can be very ugly out there...

[1859sharps]

If all you have to offer is gun "skills", you don't belong in Law Enforcement. It takes more then just being good with a gun to be a LEO. I know I am personally less concerned about a LEO's gun skills and more about their attitude, beliefs, ethics, character, intelligence ... list goes on.

Now, the ideal is to have someone good with weapons as well as other skills and traits that make a good LEO, but that is not always possible. But I agree, it does seem the minimum standard for shooting skills is a bit on the low side.

[bluestaterebel]

Mif Slim,

It sounds like you are a good shot, a natural. you are comparing yourself with someone whos average at best. in the title you say he needs help. did you help him?


are you in the treasury dept? are you a LEO? if not, we can sure use a good shot like yourself.why dont you join?