Let's talk 5.7x28mm

[SDgarrick]

.224 diameter Hornady .40 grain V-max. I'm sure you all know how devastating that projectile would be out of a 5" barrel with the all the powder charge from a 5.7 case lol.

Some of these 5.7 guys swear the FN bullets are magical. I just can't help but think how pathetic the .223 varmint projectiles are at the same velocities. Somebody please tell me where my logic is flawed.

Ready? It will kill you.

[IceMan711]

Ready? It will kill you.

I think this is how the argument will go between us:

Me: Yeah? Well a .22 will kill too, but that is not the best choice for self defense.
You: I bet you wouldn't want to get shot by one!
Me: I wouldn't want to get shot with a rubber band gun. So what?
You: It's all about shot placement anyways!

Right?

[theneko]

Without actually wading into the caliber debate I would add just one thing.
As another poster mentioned, FN is not making the best decisions regarding ammo, similar to the .45 GAP. By voluntarily pulling the original ammo from the civilian market and down-loading the non-LEO rounds that are available, they are definately hampering both the balistics and popularity of the 5.7x28 firearms.

However, if you are interested in 5.7 balistics or are the owner of a 5.7 firearm you should check out Elite Ammunition. They are making some amazing "after market" ammo and the effects are much more significant than the stock FN stuff. Utilizing this ammo you can realize the full potential of a high-capacity (non-CA), fast projectile, with excellent recoil characteristics for fast follow ups.

I would suggest you try one at the range and check out the fiveseven forums to learn more. There is a lot of good data there including balistics and gel tests.

[IceMan711]

However, if you are interested in 5.7 balistics or are the owner of a 5.7 firearm you should check out Elite Ammunition. They are making some amazing "after market" ammo and the effects are much more significant than the stock FN stuff. Utilizing this ammo you can realize the full potential of a high-capacity (non-CA), fast projectile, with excellent recoil characteristics for fast follow ups.

I haven't read anything on their website that says anything about their bullet construction. They give very limited data about the ballistics, and don't show anything like gel tests.

Responding to the increasing need for smaller yet more lethal tools, Elite Ammunition developed the S4 UltraRapTOR Tactical Operations Round specifically for law enforcement and SpecOps military professionals

Sounds like they have the same P.R. department as the eXtreme SHOCK ammunition company:

Give me a break. I just see more light weight rounds fired at speeds too slow to do anything worth while.

[SDgarrick]

I think this is how the argument will go between us:

Me: Yeah? Well a .22 will kill too, but that is not the best choice for self defense.
You: I bet you wouldn't want to get shot by one!
Me: I wouldn't want to get shot with a rubber band gun. So what?
You: It's all about shot placement anyways!

Right?

Something like that, or maybe not. I dunno. Depends on if I've got my Thinkin' Cap on. It might go something like this:

You: The 5.7 is quite the inadequate round.
Me: I disagree with your statement.
You: F U
Me: O'rly *pokes you with a pin*
You - *deflates rapidly as all hot air leaves you*

Or maybe I'll just tack "my .02" at the end of everything to keep you from trying to attack my attack on your attack.

But who knows? that's why imagination is fun!

[theneko]

If you looked around the site you would see:

Info on velocity and muzzle energy:

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=55

Some informal (?) tests with gel:

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=57

Cheers,
Neko

[Grantness]

Hey guys,

I reload the 5.7x28 for my FiveseveN pistol...so I believe I can respond to some of your questions.

Most any .224" bullet can be used in the 5.7x28 as long as it stays under ~55gr. Once you go over that, the bullet isnt going to go fast enough to be worth it....also they can sometimes fail to stabilize in the 1in9 inch twist barrel.

Some .224" bullets are designed to fragment, others are designed to tumble, and others are designed to expand. As far as I know, the 28gr bullet used in the SS192/195/198 (i'll refer to it as SS195)is perhaps the best bullet that can be legally used (it is not available seperately as a component, so it must be pulled from factory ammunition w/ a collet-style bullet puller). It will remain horizontal while penetrating hard targets, but when hitting a soft target it will tumble. Most of the time there is no exit wound, meaning that ALL of the bullet's energy is released inside the target. The AP projectile used in the SS190 isnt exactly kosher in most places. I have seen ballistic gelatin tests as well as tests on pig meat that show permanent wound cavities as large as 4 inches wide. Also, this projectile (and any other that you can push to rifle velocities) is going to cause hydrostatic shock....something that you will not find with many handgun calibers. There is also an armor penetrating capability with some bullets/ammo which I will not go into here.

The amateur home reloader can easily push the SS195 projectile to speeds of 2400fps or more if they know what they are doing (~358ft/lbs is on par with 9mm). I have also pushed 45gr expanding bullets to more than 2000fps (=400ft/lbs which is on par with .45acp). The Elite Ammunition UltraRaptor, which utilizes the 28gr SS195 projectile, can attain speeds of 2600fps out of the FsN (420ft/lbs exceeds the muzzle energy of most .45acp). Elite Ammunition regularly loads a variety of different .224" bullets for various applications from self defense to hunting to target shooting. Upon special request, they will load practically any (as long as its legal for them to do so) .224" bullet you want.

Yes, the SS195 (was 28gr @ ~2050fps but is now ~1900) and 197 (~40gr VMax @ ~1700fps)are watered down by FN. Also, the SS195 has become scarce in recent months due to increased demand, FN's contractual obligations overseas, and a decreased supply. It has also been determined that the latest production of SS195 (now in a blue box) appears to be significantly slower than before. Therefore, there is some strength to the arguments by this round's detractors that the factory ammo is weak. Fortunately, EA produces ammo superior to FN's in every way. In fact, their ammo far exceeds the performance of FN's "LEO/MIL" only ammo. I recommend that anyone who purchases an FsN/PS90 take up reloading to ensure a constant supply of good ammo. Fortunately, .224" bullets are cheap and easy to come by. SS197 is easy enough to find, so brass is generally not a problem. There isnt a whole lot of published load data, but there is enough...and there are a lot of good loads to be found on the internet if you know where to look

Sorry for the long post, but I thought you guys might be interested to know some of this stuff.

[SDgarrick]

Hey guys,

I reload the 5.7x28 for my FiveseveN pistol...so I believe I can respond to some of your questions.

Most any .224" bullet can be used in the 5.7x28 as long as it stays under ~55gr. Once you go over that, the bullet isnt going to go fast enough to be worth it....also they can sometimes fail to stabilize in the 1in9 inch twist barrel.

Some .224" bullets are designed to fragment, others are designed to tumble, and others are designed to expand. As far as I know, the 28gr bullet used in the SS192/195/198 (i'll refer to it as SS195)is perhaps the best bullet that can be legally used (it is not available seperately as a component, so it must be pulled from factory ammunition w/ a collet-style bullet puller). It will remain horizontal while penetrating hard targets, but when hitting a soft target it will tumble. Most of the time there is no exit wound, meaning that ALL of the bullet's energy is released inside the target. The AP projectile used in the SS190 isnt exactly kosher in most places. The 28gr SS195 projectile is designed to tumble. I have seen ballistic gelatin tests as well as tests on pig meat that show permanent wound cavities as large as 4 inches. Also, this projectile (and any other that you can push to rifle velocities) is going to cause hydrostatic shock....something that you will not find with many handgun calibers. There is also an armor penetrating capability with some bullets/ammo which I will not go into here.

The amateur home reloader can easily push the SS195 projectile to speeds of 2400fps or more if they know what they are doing (~358ft/lbs is on par with 9mm). I have also pushed 45gr expanding bullets to more than 2000fps (=400ft/lbs which is on par with .45acp). The Elite Ammunition UltraRaptor, which utilizes the 28gr SS195 projectile, can attain speeds of 2600fps out of the FsN (420ft/lbs exceeds the muzzle energy of most .45acp). Elite Ammunition regularly loads a variety of different .224" bullets for various applications from self defense to hunting to target shooting. Upon special request, they will load practically any (as long as its legal for them to do so) .224" bullet you want.

Yes, the SS195 (was 28gr @ ~2050fps but is now ~1900) and 197 (~40gr VMax @ ~1700fps)are watered down by FN. Also, the SS195 has become scarce in recent months due to increased demand, FN's contractual obligations overseas, and a decreased supply. It has also been determined that the latest production of SS195 (now in a blue box) appears to be significantly slower than before. Therefore, there is some strength to the arguments by this round's detractors that the factory ammo is weak. Fortunately, EA produces ammo superior to FN's in every way. In fact, their ammo far exceeds the performance of FN's "LEO/MIL" only ammo. I recommend that anyone who purchases an FsN/PS90 take up reloading to ensure a constant supply of good ammo. Fortunately, .224" bullets are cheap and easy to come by. SS197 is easy enough to find, so brass is generally not a problem. There isnt a whole lot of published load data, but there is enough...and there are a lot of good loads to be found on the internet if you know where to look

Sorry for the long post, but I thought you guys might be interested to know some of this stuff.

thanks, that was very informative. I'm not surprised by that info at all.

[SwissFluCase]

Hey guys,

I reload the 5.7x28 for my FiveseveN pistol...so I believe I can respond to some of your questions.

Most any .224" bullet can be used in the 5.7x28 as long as it stays under ~55gr. Once you go over that, the bullet isnt going to go fast enough to be worth it....also they can sometimes fail to stabilize in the 1in9 inch twist barrel.

Some .224" bullets are designed to fragment, others are designed to tumble, and others are designed to expand. As far as I know, the 28gr bullet used in the SS192/195/198 (i'll refer to it as SS195)is perhaps the best bullet that can be legally used (it is not available seperately as a component, so it must be pulled from factory ammunition w/ a collet-style bullet puller). It will remain horizontal while penetrating hard targets, but when hitting a soft target it will tumble. Most of the time there is no exit wound, meaning that ALL of the bullet's energy is released inside the target. The AP projectile used in the SS190 isnt exactly kosher in most places. I have seen ballistic gelatin tests as well as tests on pig meat that show permanent wound cavities as large as 4 inches wide. Also, this projectile (and any other that you can push to rifle velocities) is going to cause hydrostatic shock....something that you will not find with many handgun calibers. There is also an armor penetrating capability with some bullets/ammo which I will not go into here.

The amateur home reloader can easily push the SS195 projectile to speeds of 2400fps or more if they know what they are doing (~358ft/lbs is on par with 9mm). I have also pushed 45gr expanding bullets to more than 2000fps (=400ft/lbs which is on par with .45acp). The Elite Ammunition UltraRaptor, which utilizes the 28gr SS195 projectile, can attain speeds of 2600fps out of the FsN (420ft/lbs exceeds the muzzle energy of most .45acp). Elite Ammunition regularly loads a variety of different .224" bullets for various applications from self defense to hunting to target shooting. Upon special request, they will load practically any (as long as its legal for them to do so) .224" bullet you want.

Yes, the SS195 (was 28gr @ ~2050fps but is now ~1900) and 197 (~40gr VMax @ ~1700fps)are watered down by FN. Also, the SS195 has become scarce in recent months due to increased demand, FN's contractual obligations overseas, and a decreased supply. It has also been determined that the latest production of SS195 (now in a blue box) appears to be significantly slower than before. Therefore, there is some strength to the arguments by this round's detractors that the factory ammo is weak. Fortunately, EA produces ammo superior to FN's in every way. In fact, their ammo far exceeds the performance of FN's "LEO/MIL" only ammo. I recommend that anyone who purchases an FsN/PS90 take up reloading to ensure a constant supply of good ammo. Fortunately, .224" bullets are cheap and easy to come by. SS197 is easy enough to find, so brass is generally not a problem. There isnt a whole lot of published load data, but there is enough...and there are a lot of good loads to be found on the internet if you know where to look

Sorry for the long post, but I thought you guys might be interested to know some of this stuff.

I have always suspected that FN was watering down the ammo. It seems that no weapons system really becomes refined until the hobbyists get a hold of it, and the 5.7 will be no exception. I think that this cartridge can be a serious combat cartridge, but it is going to take more than the FN Kool-Aid to make it so.

I would love a PS90. After the CA AWB is nuked, and open long gun carry is restored, the PS90 would make a great vehicle gun.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

[RJ Herle]

I haven't read anything on their website that says anything about their bullet construction. They give very limited data about the ballistics, and don't show anything like gel tests.

I really don't like to confront armchair commando's on the net, but I was somewhat insulted by your posting. We've always listed the ballistic performance of our ammunition, including its ability to penetrate jello-blocks. Which is more than what 95% of other manufacturers do.

Perhaps you would like to investigate further, perhaps not. If you do, please look at this URL for video of gellatin testing and armor penetration tests.

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1502

Sounds like they have the same P.R. department as the eXtreme SHOCK ammunition company:

And it seems to me, after reading multiple postings from you all over this website, that you have a chip on your shoulder. You know nothing of our company, but yet you're willing to badmouth us publicly because of your distemper. That says less about us, and more about your own insecurities (and bullyish behaviuor).

As it pertains to Marty Facklers reasearch, have you actually read it? No, I didn't think so. Nor will you ever be able to. In order to read the actual article you must be a member of the guild, which requires an MD as a minimum, and a $1,500 yearly payment. All that you've read is what's been snippeted and posted by several people, ironically who work for competitors of FN. And, for what its worth, the testing was done using a cartridge that is no longer made, has not been since the late 80's, and was anemic in comparison to FN's current anemic rounds.

Now, if you'd like to discuss this in person, like a big boy, feel free to telephone to me or my partner. We'd love to speak with you. 815.814.0847.
Ask for Ryan Herle or Jay Wolf.

[RJ Herle]

Oh, and one final thing (I assume you'll try and use the IWBA data, that you can't read fully, can't understand fully, and can't comprehend fully) about the IWBA... They're such a successful orginazation that they're no longer in existance.

Don't believe me? Google them.

[IceMan711]

I'm flattered that you would take the time to respond, and even investigate my postings on this board! I always like to bring new members to Calguns. =)

You're mostly right: I am indeed an arm chair commando, I do sound more like a dick than I intend to, and I may have a chip on my shoulder. I had a 5.7 pistol a while back and decided it was a novelty item, so I sold it for a $250 loss. Maybe I just have had hurt feelings since then, but there is a lot of compelling data against the cartridge, a lot of passionate opinions, and debating is fun.

I wasn't trying to attack your company, I just have a hard time taking any company seriously when they play the 'tacticool' card the way you have. I wish you the best of luck with your company and your UltraRapTOR Tactical Operations Round.

[sigsauer887]

I'm flattered that you would take the time to respond, and even investigate my postings on this board! I always like to bring new members to Calguns. =)

You're mostly right: I am indeed an arm chair commando, I do sound more like a dick than I intend to, and I may have a chip on my shoulder. I had a 5.7 pistol a while back and decided it was a novelty item, so I sold it for a $250 loss. Maybe I just have had hurt feelings since then, but there is a lot of compelling data against the cartridge, a lot of passionate opinions, and debating is fun.

I wasn't trying to attack your company, I just have a hard time taking any company seriously when they play the 'tacticool' card the way you have. I wish you the best of luck with your company and your UltraRapTOR Tactical Operations Round.

You sold it for $250~?!!?!?!

[Zesty]

^he said a $250 LOSS

[RJ Herle]

I'm flattered that you would take the time to respond, and even investigate my postings on this board! I always like to bring new members to Calguns. =)

You're mostly right: I am indeed an arm chair commando, I do sound more like a dick than I intend to, and I may have a chip on my shoulder. I had a 5.7 pistol a while back and decided it was a novelty item, so I sold it for a $250 loss. Maybe I just have had hurt feelings since then, but there is a lot of compelling data against the cartridge, a lot of passionate opinions, and debating is fun.

I wasn't trying to attack your company, I just have a hard time taking any company seriously when they play the 'tacticool' card the way you have. I wish you the best of luck with your company and your UltraRapTOR Tactical Operations Round.

I'm not sure where you get 'Tacticool' from our website. The fact of the matter is that both my partner and I are combat veterans; having served in TO&E, MCM, and Forward Observation/Pathfinding positions. We are both educated engineers, qualified ballisticians, and maintain relationships with agencies such as FBI, USSS, DEA, BATFE, and SOA. We have, through continuous testing and cooperation, developed a number of cartridges to suit their needs, based upon their feedback, and using their criterium.

We are not attempting to seem "eXtreme****tish' like those clowns (who owe me money, btw, for product purchased for evaluation that they've never delivered), but the fact remains that certain types of advertisements are effective. We are in businss to make profit, expand, and make more profit. Advertising that helps us to those ends are what our shareholders expect and demand.

Do I like it? That's besides the point. I am the CEO and my job is to position the company I've been given charge over into being the dominating producer of 5.7x28mm ammunition. Since everything we make exceeds FN's performance by a minimum of 20% and a maximum of 40%, I'd say we literally have no competetion in the market we're in. Regardless, we still have to advertise our ammunition in such a way as to make and maintain brand recognition, so that when people think 5.7x28mm, they think "Elite Ammunition."

I'm sorry if you don't like the verbage of our product descriptions. However, they are what polled the best to our target sample audience. Advertising is not an art, but a science, and as we all know, one must follow the laws of science...

I wish you no ill will personally, I simply took umbrage to you lumping us in with Extreme****.