Let's talk 5.7x28mm

[xxxx]

It seems that the 5.7x28mm round is very controversial. As some of you might know I am the proud owner of a PS90 (out of state).

I would like to hear what you all think of the ballistics of the 5.7x28mm round coming out of the FN FiveSeveN/10" barrel of P90 and 16" barrel of PS90.

For the sake of argument lets not include CA gun laws in this topic due to the fact that someone will stand up and say, "YOU CAN'T HAVE MORE THEN 10 ROUNDS!" or bash on the platform because it is not CA compliant.

So let's hear it - what do you think of 5.7x28mm?

[SDgarrick]

I think it's a neat concept, don't own one, never shot one, would love to though. You'll always have the .45 die hards and we can guess their positions... I suppose it would depend on the attacker, the situation (body armor?), and a multitude of other variables. All that considered, I know it to be a very flat shooter and thus accurate over distances compared to other pistol rounds... Accuracy equals a greater chance of hitting where you want and we all know that shot placement trumps all. So there ya go.

[xxxx]

I think it's a neat concept, don't own one, never shot one, would love to though. You'll always have the .45 die hards and we can guess their positions... I suppose it would depend on the attacker, the situation (body armor?), and a multitude of other variables. All that considered, I know it to be a very flat shooter and thus accurate over distances compared to other pistol rounds... Accuracy equals a greater chance of hitting where you want and we all know that shot placement trumps all. So there ya go.

Yup, I've heard it compared with .223, 9mm, and .45ACP. So far I am convinced on its superiority over 9mm in terms of penetration, tissue damage, range (out of my PS90).

I've heard many people state that at under 50 yards 5.7x28 is very similar to .223, but I question that.

It almost seems like the anti-.45ACP, where as the .45 is a big slow moving projectile the 5.7 is small and quick. So there is much debate there.

[jchen76@gmail.com]

If the round was loaded by other companies, and more pistol/rifle selections it would have a larger following. FN's hold on patents and design may be its undoing. Kinda like the .45 GAP that Glock is pushing.

[virulosity]

I think it is probably the best pistol cartridge there is. Low recoil, small size = large capacity, high velocity = high damage and flat trajectory. I would be interested in seeing the energy at 50ft compared to a .45ACP. I would bet they would be relatively close, and considering the benefits in capacity (7 rounds vs 20) you have more firepower in the 5ive7even.

[Dr Rockso]

Call me naive, but I think the reason I don't see the 5.7 as anything spectacular is because I still don't think anyone has built the ultimate .223 bullpup carbine. I think when it happens, it will look a lot like Magpul's concept PDR. Something the size of the P90 but a more common (and IMO more serious) round.


I certainly think that the 5.7 round is an interesting concept, but wouldn't be among my first choices for a gunfight. I have to admit that if I lived in a free state I would definitely consider getting the AR57 upper just for a range toy. Almost no recoil, standard capacity 50 round magazines...yes please...

[IceMan711]

I've actually been doing a little web research on this lately out of my own curiosity due to a previous 5.7 thread. Excuse my wordy post, but this is fresh on my mind. It may ruffle some feathers.

It is my understanding that the 5.7 projectiles are very similar to light .223 bullets. I read that some 5.7 reloaders were using .223 bullets as components to keep the costs down, since both bullets are 5.69 mm (.224 inch) in diameter and of similar construction.

This being said, it is easy for me to compare these rounds to the effectiveness of .223 bullets with similar weights and velocities. Light weight .223 bullets have always shown less than stellar effectiveness, especially if you fire them out of a short barrel with decreased velocities. Those have always been varmint rounds that lack penetration. They have impressive fragmentation in gel when fired at adequate velocities, but always lack the penetration to be considered for a home defense type role.

I don't understand how a bullet so similar to a .223 can be considered to be an effective man stopper when fired out of such short barrel lengths, with such light weights, and severely reduced velocities. I mean, how effective would a 28gr .223 rem bullet be when fired out of a 5" barrel? Or even a 10" - 16"? The lightweight .223's are under performers, even with their larger brass and increased power charges.

I have read how people say how they have seen the effectiveness of these cartridges when hunting, and their amazing performance. I have no reason to believe that what they saw would be better than a slow varmint .223 round, or yes, even a .22mag.

It is just strange to me that people on the 5.7 boards claim that these rounds will "tumble through vital organs". (a direct quote) When an ultra light weight 28 grain .223 fired through a 5" - 10" barrel would be laughed at (and rightfully so)

If you want to argue that this is an effective cartridge because it allows for high magazine capacity and faster, more accurate follow shots then more power to you. If you absolutely have to penetrate body armor with your side arm, then this round is for you. I would just not, however, suggest to argue that these rounds bring more to the table ballistics wise than 9/40/45 do.

[xxxx]

I will share my experience with an FN FiveSeveN pistol vs a Glock 17. (I love Glocks)

At the range I took my PS90 and I saw a guy with a FN FiveSeveN and a Glock 17. I had a Class II in good condition I was going to test out with my PS90.

I am by no means an expert at ballistics, in fact I know very little.

He saw what I was about to do and asked if he could join in on my test.

Results were:

Glock 17 penetrated Class II and hit the plywood boards underneath.
FN FiveSeveN penetrated ClassII, made a mess out of the plywood and came out the other side.
PS90 clean threw both sides, even at 75 yards. I even doubled up the plywood to see what would happen (can't remember exactly how many boards were in there)

Now I know my tests were the equivalent of an 8th grade science lab, but the damage from the little 5.7mm round really messed up those boards - and went out the other end of the body armor.

(FYI, we flipped over the back end of the body armor so the back was facing the wrong direction - thus less chance of penetration)

[uzigalil]

you guys realize that the FN p90 using 5.7x28 was developed around 1991 and may have see its first combat use in the Japanese enbassy hostage takeover in Peru in 1996. The p90 was developed to be used with the ss190 a steel core round , it was designed to be used by support troops and pierce enemy body armor and soft targets. The rounds available to civilians such as the ss195 and ss197 compare more to a .22 magnum.

It has been reported in after action reports that its not an effective round for round man stopper.


Id love to know Iceman what 5.56 components someone is using to reload 5.7 ?

It is another of FN's failed military weapons, with limited sales to some close protection teams, the secret service and some us swat teams, they have sold more to civilians, lucky for us. I have a IOM and went through p90 school. Its fun but has problems like any system.

[NSR500]

We can debate the 5.7 all day and I can see why it has it's proponents and opponents. I personally like the round and will be picking up an AR57 upper soon.
I do want to say that I applaud FN Herstal for getting all these cool guns to us, unlike so many in the industry that come up with vaporware or don't sell to civilians.

[artherd]

It is a fantastic round, with muzzle energy exceeding that of 9mm, very light recoil and 20 round capacity in a handgun. It is absolutely SAVAGE on phone books (I could stick my fist in the exit hole.) and is far beyond a .22mag.

9 times of 10 I can hit a silhouette at 100 meters with mine. Meters. With a handgun.

It has been reported in after action reports that its not an effective round for round man stopper.

Oh really? Every incident involving the 5.7 that I know of - has proven fatal...

The rounds available to civilians such as the ss195 and ss197 compare more to a .22 magnum.

Uh. no. The S190 and SS195 are approximately equivalent, and both will penetrate body amour, though the SS190 is more effective in this role.
They are otherwise ballistically equivalent.

[IceMan711]

Id love to know Iceman what 5.56 components someone is using to reload 5.7 ?

.224 diameter Hornady .40 grain V-max. I'm sure you all know how devastating that projectile would be out of a 5" barrel with the all the powder charge from a 5.7 case lol.

Some of these 5.7 guys swear the FN bullets are magical. I just can't help but think how pathetic the .223 varmint projectiles are at the same velocities. Somebody please tell me where my logic is flawed.

[uzigalil]

really every Incident has been fatal? How many rounds did it take , a rather general statement

Care to be more specific as to what level of body armor does the ss195 and ss197 penetrate versus the ss190.

[uzigalil]

Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm projectiles fired by the FN P90:

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

A few large U.S. LE agencies adopted 5.7 mm weapons--after being involved in several OIS incidents with P90's, 5.7 mm usage in these agencies plummeted as a result of the poor terminal performance.

It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP--even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body. As with any penetrating projectile, if either a 9 mm or 5.7 mm bullet is ideally placed to cause significant damage to the CNS or major cardiovascular organs, a fatal result is likely.



The P90 can definitely penetrate soft body armor, but then so can 9 mm AP rounds. The greater momentum of 9 mm bullets allow them to defeat vehicles and other intermediate barriers better than the 5.7 mm bullets. Standard 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP JHP loads crush more tissue, offer ideal penetration, and are equally likely to not exit the opponent as the 5.7 mm. 5.56 mm and 6.8 mm weapons offer significantly superior terminal effects compared to 5.7 mm. Bottom line—what does the P90 offer that is not already available?

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

[mblat]

It is absolutely SAVAGE on phone books (I could stick my fist in the exit hole.) and is far beyond a .22mag.

I am no ballistic experts...... but phone books have one HUGE difference from human body - it isn't elastic. And we all know how important ( not ) temporary cavity is in handguns shootings <shrugs>

As far as I know 5.7 doesn't fragment..... so..... let me see...... Main problem with 9mm FMJ is that it is light and fast and doesn't fragment and leaves very accurate and not dangerous ( sort of... ) wound. With 5.7 we have bullet that lighter and faster and doesn't fragment...... what exactly posses this bullet to be deadly?
And hitting target at 100 yards.... that is nice, of cause..... but in real word, who cares? You are telling me that you would ever consider taking REAL shot at REAL person with handgun at 100 yards?