How would you counter this?

[Jpach]

How many cops accidentally kill people or themselves? How many soldiers accidentally kill innocent people or themselves? Now calculate how many hours they each hold them or have immediate access to them. That should totally own in the "holding a firearm" to hours ratio section of this debate.

[C.G.]

The argument is flawed due to cars were not designed to kill, but yet they end up being such an instrument, in spite of all the safety features built into them now.

[dwa]

how many thoughts exercised in free speach have resulted in the death of others?

[jc_stecker]

Not sure how useful this is, but I remember it being posted here a while ago:

National Safety Council: Odds of Dying

[Librarian]

That's a pretty silly hypothetical.

Just reply that we have sixty years of experience of licensed drivers driving registered vehicles and the annual accidental deaths in traffic is still over 40,000, even after significant technological improvements in automobiles and highway design.

The accidental death figure associated with firearms is under 900 annually.

How does your conversation partner propose to ameliorate the nasty habit of deliberately pointing a gun at another human being and pulling the trigger?

[trinydex]

The argument is flawed due to cars were not designed to kill, but yet they end up being such an instrument, in spite of all the safety features built into them now.

yeah i tend to shy away from this angle too because they can immediately argue that guns are actually made to kill people.

this is why the debate always channels into >>> are you ok with an instrument of death? if you're not then that's rather immature, if you are then we can move on to the protection factor, inherent rights to self defense, the best tool for that...

guns then become recognized as a universal equilizer, men, women, police, gays, lesbians, all play on the same ground with the almighty firearm.

then it goes to crime and legal ownership. crime, we all know the arguments for on both sides. legal ownership many times has never been considered. so then you get to talkin' about legal ownership and the bottleneck narrows to the school shootings. because legally owned guns can turn into an illegal attack at least ONCE. school shootings, mass shootings, always get brought up at this time.

so then it becomes >>> do we bear the responsibility for the statistically minute mass shootings so that the greater "good" of legal firearms ownership is preserved?

[hoffmang]

yeah i tend to shy away from this angle too because they can immediately argue that guns are actually made to kill people.

I like that trap. Let them make that argument and then ask them or rhetorically tell them: "that's right; we give every cop a gun so he can kill people!"

I love the look I get from that line.

-Gene

[DedEye]

Id think you would have to use the "carrying a gun" hours, not "holding" hours. The time a firearm is accessible, CCW, open carry, police, hunting, all of those things, would have to be factored.

Sounds like the right response.

I'd run em over

Hilarious, but probably the wrong answer .

[pneutin]

You can counter with...

Guns kill more bad guys than innocent people.
Cars kill more innocent people than bad guys.

[JerryM]

Numbers that sort of match:

Here are my numbers:

21 years driving x 365 days x 24 hours = 183960 driving hours available per day for driving. Average driving hours per person per day: 2 (21x365x24= 183960/24*2= 15330)

So I have 15330 number of hours driving. This does not take into consideration long trips, tracked and heavy wheeled vehicles and driving in extreme conditions like snow, fog, uneven terrain, using night vision goggles or reacting to RPGs, machine gun fire, rockets, minefields, intimacy with the girlfriend, etc.

Total Accidents: 3 (two not at fault, one partial)

1.5 years carrying (Iraq + Afghanistan) x 365 days x 24 hours = 13140 carrying hours available per day. Average carrying hours per person per day: 24

I have 13140 number of hours carrying. This does not take into consideration live fire exercises , use of crew served weapons, submachine guns, fire and maneuver, AT-4s, LAWs, grenades, carrying multiple weapons, lack of sleep, scud missiles, conceal carry, range time, stress, fear, screams, etc.

Total Accidents: 0 (no innocent civilians, no friendly fire, no indiscriminate fire)

In summary:

Car= 15330 hours = 3 accidents.
Gun= 13140 hours = 0 accidents.

In conclusion:

Tell that douche bag to pound sand.

P.S.: I am not a math wiz. If this can be fixed to be more accurate, by all means go for it.

[Jonathan Doe]

I carry guns 24/7, and work 40-50 hours a week with guns. And work on guns at home, too. There was no fatality or injury by caused by me. On the other hand, in 2005 alone, I was rear ended on the freeway 3 times and I was off work total of about 1 year due to injury.

[dwh100]

This was my reply, hope you don't mind my purloining a comment or two:

>>"It would be interesting to do the following study - it would be VERY hard, so let's make it somewhat of a "thought experiment".

Let's add up all the hours in the country where people HOLD their gun. Let's call this gun hours. This is because guns not in someone's hands RARELY fires!

Let do the same with cars. Add all those hours when people are IN their car. Let's call these car hours.

Now, I would actually bet that the yearly ratio of gun deaths to gun hours is MUCH higher then the car deaths to car hours.

So, are we being hypocritical now?">>

No, you're being hypothetical now.

This is a sophist misdirect (redherring) away from the raw facts that automobile drivers kill more than shooters. I'd first have to say prove the contrary!

Let's see, you'd have to take into account that being in a car is different than having your foot on the accelerator. You'd also have to take into account how many drivers, firearm owners there are, and how often they use, clean, practice, handle, fondle, hunt with and carry their firearms, or drive. The list of data to accrue could go on, and on, and on ... but why?

You can't prove it. You see we live in the "real" world not the "thought experiment" world! Real raw numbers are used here.

Regardless as to how much time cars vs. guns are used or operated, the fact remains that the odds of dying in a car accident far outweigh the odds of dying from gun violence and accidents combined. If the ultimate goal of government is to prevent harm to its people, then the logical choice would be to regulate that which offers a greater risk to society.

But wait!! Vehicles are regulated much more stringently than are firearms. One must pass driver's exams before going behind the wheel. One must have insurance before going behind the wheel. One must obey certain speed limits and lane directions. Wonderful!!! The problem with dangerous cars has been solved by our lawmakers.

But then again... Regardless of all these laws, police issue thousands of tickets daily, catch drunks driving all the time. Regardless of the laws tens of thousands of people die when these laws are broken. I broke the law today when I drove to work. Hey, I was running a little late.

That gets me to my point... Are people as likely to do unsafe/illegal things while operating firearm as they are when operating a moving vehicle? I doubt it! Those that will do unsafe/illegal things with firearms are the same criminals that new restricting laws would fail at disarming. 90% of people that drive do unsafe/illegal things every day.

Laws already exist to "force" people to be safe with guns. Brandishing, Aiming at a person, shooting at a person, shooting a person, murdering a person, destruction of property, poaching...etc These laws work for those who will obey them much as the traffic laws work for those who obey them. The difference is the majority of gun owners obey the "gun safety" laws but oppose the "gun control" laws, whereas the majority of vehicle operators can often be caught breaking several laws every time they get behind the wheel, sometimes on purpose.

So, greater legislation does not necessarily solve the improper use of these tools.

Finally,
Operational time is moot. Contrary to the purpose of having a car, the entire point of having/carrying a firearm is not ever having to use it. How many fire extinguisher hours do you have, and since the answer is probably 0, shouldn't we ban fire extenguishers?

Unlike you, I'm not going to pat myself on the back, because I know I'm a poor statisticain and a crappy debater.

Stats can be twisted.
Raw numbers show exactly what is more lethal, and more harmful to the public safety!

**IMHO further firearm restriction won't prevent the illegal use of firearms, but it will hinder those who legally obey and excersize their constitutional right!**

Word!

I'm done with this thread!

[trinydex]

I like that trap. Let them make that argument and then ask them or rhetorically tell them: "that's right; we give every cop a gun so he can kill people!"

I love the look I get from that line.

-Gene

this is definitely the right response when that issue comes up but i like leap frogging that point because the issue at heart is really, even if they ARE designed to kill people... so? are you as a human not capable of accepting that there exists an instrument used for death? and this really ends up bringing out a whole host of emotional issues for certain types, issues they don't actually like acknolwedging or confronting. it's usually at that point too when you know whether or not the person is capable of even holding a discussion or not. once you realize they're ruled by emotion and worse that human life loss is an inexcusable phenomenon and must be prevented at all costs (which is self defeating), then you can just "close" it with the cops have guns for... argument.

You can counter with...

Guns kill more bad guys than innocent people.
Cars kill more innocent people than bad guys.

this is a good one

[Beelzy]

I would tell that fool that all the money the State spent to brainwash them
really paid off.

Then tell them to stick to the facts and quit twisting it into something they
like.

[MolonLabe2008]

I've read that there are between 1 to 2 million incidences per year in which a gun was used in a defensive manner.

So, you can say that guns save up to 2 million lives per year.

How many times a year are cars used to save lives?