Laser function test fail! Another idiot gun video

[zinfull]

Sometimes you just have to accept that a gun is not loaded. Does everyone handle a gun the same way as loaded after verifying it is not. I do relax somewhat when it is not loaded.

[IVC]

I do relax somewhat when it is not loaded.

That's exactly the problem - feeling more relaxed.

The first safety rule is there to create safe handling habits and protocols so you don't think and act differently based on whether it's loaded or not. The one time you happen to have a brain cramp and forget to check is the one time it will cost you.

Look at the videos of self inflicted wounds and you'll see that a large fraction of handlers thought the gun was empty, so they did something they'd never do with a loaded gun.

I don't even like the first rule to be stated as: "Treat every gun as if it's loaded" since it is often misrepresented as "Guns are always loaded" (which is nonsense). I would prefer the rule to state: "Don't handle an unloaded gun in the way you wouldn't handle a loaded gun." That is the true intent of the rule.

[IVC]

lol okay. I believe you.

To each his own.

There are many people reading these boards and they can choose to do it your way or the correct way. Don't assume everybody is "too operator" to follow safety rules. Some of us are dumb and boring when it comes to safety, especially when it's supported by extensive scientific evidence. (Not to mention that many of us are involved in multiple other activities with significant safety protocols and where death is an almost certain outcome of being too smart to follow the safety rules.)

The worst part of your comment is that it's actually *very easy* to follow safety rules in the home. It doesn't take extra time and it doesn't affect what you can do. As a test, put a bunch of range guns (unloaded) and home defense guns (loaded) on a table and start doing your drills. If the idea makes you sweat, you're doing something wrong.

[zinfull]

So how do you clean a loaded gun?

[IVC]

So how do you clean a loaded gun?

You don't. The protocol for cleaning the gun is the same whether you start with a loaded or unloaded gun.

For example, you don't rest the slide of your Glock against your thigh to keep it from falling off when you pull the trigger, etc.

[zinfull]

So when do you treat it as unloaded?

[IVC]

So when do you treat it as unloaded?

Never. If you wouldn't do something with loaded, you don't do it with unloaded.

When field stripping this means that if you have to pull the trigger to disassemble the gun (e.g., Glock), you check that it's unloaded (the same as if you started with loaded), you point in the safe direction (the same as if you were dry firing at a match after a stage), you keep your weak hand away from the muzzle (the same as if it were loaded), you pull the trigger and take off the slide. Once you take it apart it's just a set of parts so *firearm* safety rules don't apply.

[HardwoodRods]

IVC you'll never win, the operators are out in force and know way better than you

[billofrights]

Where were you guys when this video was going around the first time about a year ago?

[zinfull]

I get the idea of treating guns as loaded but it is like the zero tolerance rules in school. You need to use your brain at some point. IF you treat every gun as loaded then when field stripping a glock are you going to find a save place to shoot? I sure in hell am not going to pull a trigger on a "loaded" gun in my kitchen.

[BennyAdeline]

Glad this thread inspired some passion!

I was raised that a gun is always loaded until it is broken down, so that is how I always think.

I understand the "no big deal" standpoint, but allowing for exceptions in gun safety has been the reason for many negligent discharges.

[BennyAdeline]

I get the idea of treating guns as loaded but it is like the zero tolerance rules in school. You need to use your brain at some point. IF you treat every gun as loaded then when field stripping a glock are you going to find a save place to shoot? I sure in hell am not going to pull a trigger on a "loaded" gun in my kitchen.

Visually and physically inspecting the chamber moments before breaking the gun down is different from pulling it from your pocket and pointing it at your hand.

Even when cleaning my Glock, I point the muzzle to the ground when pulling the trigger, even after inspecting it. Being overly safe is not a bad thing with guns.

[stix213]

TL;DR: You wouldn't clean a loaded gun would you? Then the "gun is always loaded" rule is stupid.

The treat as always loaded rule is retarded. If you always have to treat a gun as loaded, you could never remove the slide from your Glock for cleaning while at home, because you have to pull the trigger first. Since you'd never pull the trigger on a loaded gun in your home, it is impossible to remove a Glock's slide at home.

I wish people would stop promoting the gun is ALWAYS loaded rule, because if you believe that one then you frequently will have to violate it for normal activities like removing a Glock slide. That then gets you used to routinely violating safety rules as a normal part of handling a firearm. Not good!

I personally use "The gun is always loaded until I've personally safety checked it, and is immediately loaded again as soon as it leaves my hand". That way I never have to violate that rule, and can actually do things such as dry fire practice or clean the firearm. You would never clean a loaded gun would you?

By the way I'd never point that gun at my hand like in the video though, but that's a violation of a separate rule.

[dwinters14]

To each his own.

There are many people reading these boards and they can choose to do it your way or the correct way. Don't assume everybody is "too operator" to follow safety rules. Some of us are dumb and boring when it comes to safety, especially when it's supported by extensive scientific evidence. (Not to mention that many of us are involved in multiple other activities with significant safety protocols and where death is an almost certain outcome of being too smart to follow the safety rules.)

The worst part of your comment is that it's actually *very easy* to follow safety rules in the home. It doesn't take extra time and it doesn't affect what you can do. As a test, put a bunch of range guns (unloaded) and home defense guns (loaded) on a table and start doing your drills. If the idea makes you sweat, you're doing something wrong.

Believe me I'm all about safety. I understand what you're saying, I just think it's extreme. You can be safe without being overboard about it. Once I clear my gun, I relax. If I know my firearm is loaded for HD, sure I treat it differently, but that's once I've confirmed it's condition. Every gun is loaded until proven safe.

Firearms are dangerous, but i think you need have a certain confidence with them as well, otherwise that could lead to an accident the same way being over confident or stupid can. I have confidence in my safe handing and competence that I can dry fire practice 10 different guns at once and not have an ND even if half of them were actually loaded.

[IVC]

I get the idea of treating guns as loaded but it is like the zero tolerance rules in school. You need to use your brain at some point. IF you treat every gun as loaded then when field stripping a glock are you going to find a save place to shoot? I sure in hell am not going to pull a trigger on a "loaded" gun in my kitchen.

You would be correct IF that's how the safety rule about "loaded gun" worked. It doesn't.

Let's clarify what seems to be a misunderstanding. When I say that "you treat every gun as loaded" it doesn't mean that every individual action on a gun must be the same whether loaded or unloaded, but that every single protocol involving the gun must be the same.

In your example the "treat as loaded" doesn't mean "don't dry fire in the kitchen if you wouldn't fire a live round," but "pick the safest direction for the dry fire the way you would at a shooting range."

When you clean a gun you have a set of steps that you perform. Those steps have to be independent of whether you *start* with a loaded or unloaded gun. It doesn't mean that at every step you can swap loaded for unloaded and vice versa, just that the steps create a safe protocol for handling the gun and that the protocol doesn't change.

Compare to muzzle sweeping. If you do it with a closed chamber you are violating the core safety rule whether the gun is loaded or not. That is because it would be a violation if the gun were loaded. You cannot have two protocols for muzzle sweep based on the state of the gun.

Also note that even if the chamber is open you are not allowed to muzzle sweep at ranges and especially at shooting matches. Break the 180 degree rule and home you go even if muzzle didn't sweep anyone. While you can argue that this is redundant and not necessary, this rule is in place to create a firm and instinctive habit of NOT muzzle sweeping when handling a gun. Or, to be more pedantic, even though the chamber is open, it's still a gun and if you wouldn't do it with loaded...