Can not complete PPT without a bullet button on your Stripped Lower.

[donbing]

Don,
I understand the policy, retarded as it is and all, and your replies here earn my sympathy (not that you were soliciting it or anything), but I have to say,
"Why do lowers at all?" It kind of makes sense that if your policy knit-picks "stripped lower needs a bullet button (even though impossible) because it can get configured illegally later" but at the same time, you'd consider a lower with a BB, even though it also can be configured illegal later?

I guess what I"m trying to say is, either deal in complete rifles and/or deal in complete legality (stripped or complete lower without upper OK to not have BB since it's not legally needed) and TAKE A PICTURE! Seriously, I'll bet supportive photography of DROS'd lowers/rifles would be enough to safeguard against any prosecution..I'd hope.

Hey there Ironchef,
Still playing BF2?

We're working on the policy now. Tenpercent was kind enough to forward a copy of their policy and we're looking it over pretty carefully.

If it were my own choice, we would only deal in complete builds and would not do the lowers at all. More money, more margin more of a chance to sell optics, ammo etc... The guy wanting a lower (not everyone's case but true enough in a fair number of situations) just wants us to do the transfer of a lower because he already thinks he has the other parts lined up. Pretty tough to upsell or get that guy to spend any extra $ if he's already willing to go through the trouble of having parts sent from all points of the compass just to save tax or doesn't mind waiting 4 months for his parts to arrive. We're after the guys that just WANT IT NOW! This will no doubt bring the ire of folks who can't/don't want to spend the entire wad right now for a complete one but that's ultimately why the doors to the shop are open, to sell and turn a profit so I can pay that platoon of guys I've got working there.

As the supply chain further shrivels, we'll probably start doing lowers ourselves (yep, with a BB!) once we can't reliably expect to get the uppers to go with them.

As it is, the law says we have to accomodate PPTs so we do. Squirting on DOJ's foot by refusing PPTs, isn't in our best interests. We will on occasion refuse PPTs, like the guys who came in Saturday to PPT a Walther P22 that still had the removable thread cap. They've probably registered their complaint against us with the 3 letter gods. As of now, the retarded policy is in place but like I said, things may change.

As for the camera idea, I like it. Please send a Nikon D3X digital camera and a 60mm close up lens to the shop, care of me. Seriously though, I like the idea and it could work on some items but how am I going to take a pic of an AR showing the serial number and showing the BB at the same time? They're on opposite sides. Mirrors? Better yet, send two Nikons!

[Nodda Duma]

Actually, using a mirror is a good idea. I've set up tests at work which required a single high speed camera to simultaneously see the side and bottom of an item flying by, and setting up a simple mirror worked perfectly.

-Jason

[scootergmc]

Alright Scoot, for you we're open on Sun and Mon...between 10p and Midnight. Just be careful in the parking lot and don't sweep the brass out of your pickup in front of the store again.

Seriously though, we need Sundays and Mondays to watch cartoons so we can smile and stay nice and happy while we listen to folks tell us about having their cousin on parole in 'Zona gonna buy them a "Moosenburger gauge and a Tec FO-FO" with 265 rd. biodegradable mags and ship it to them piece by piece via Antarctica hidden in shipments of penquin poo...

You are far too old to be posting at 1:49 a.m. And besides, I know that dude and his cousin. Don't worry, they're cool.

[Ironchef]

Hey there Ironchef,
Still playing BF2?

We're working on the policy now. Tenpercent was kind enough to forward a copy of their policy and we're looking it over pretty carefully.

If it were my own choice, we would only deal in complete builds and would not do the lowers at all. More money, more margin more of a chance to sell optics, ammo etc... The guy wanting a lower (not everyone's case but true enough in a fair number of situations) just wants us to do the transfer of a lower because he already thinks he has the other parts lined up. Pretty tough to upsell or get that guy to spend any extra $ if he's already willing to go through the trouble of having parts sent from all points of the compass just to save tax or doesn't mind waiting 4 months for his parts to arrive. We're after the guys that just WANT IT NOW! This will no doubt bring the ire of folks who can't/don't want to spend the entire wad right now for a complete one but that's ultimately why the doors to the shop are open, to sell and turn a profit so I can pay that platoon of guys I've got working there.

As the supply chain further shrivels, we'll probably start doing lowers ourselves (yep, with a BB!) once we can't reliably expect to get the uppers to go with them.

As it is, the law says we have to accomodate PPTs so we do. Squirting on DOJ's foot by refusing PPTs, isn't in our best interests. We will on occasion refuse PPTs, like the guys who came in Saturday to PPT a Walther P22 that still had the removable thread cap. They've probably registered their complaint against us with the 3 letter gods. As of now, the retarded policy is in place but like I said, things may change.

As for the camera idea, I like it. Please send a Nikon D3X digital camera and a 60mm close up lens to the shop, care of me. Seriously though, I like the idea and it could work on some items but how am I going to take a pic of an AR showing the serial number and showing the BB at the same time? They're on opposite sides. Mirrors? Better yet, send two Nikons!

As much as I'd love to be an FFL, I don't admire the tight line you are forced to walk...dealing lawfully, but having the unlawful antagonists (atf/doj/et al) harassing you at every turn causing such paranoia and such policies.

Would you take a D80? just kidding. I'd like one of those myself. Good luck in all things and it's easy to see your reputation as reported here as well as your people skills is immaculate and I wish I could bring you business and let the people at Diablo valley Gun Works know how to do it!

[sierratangofoxtrotunion]

Idea:

Have a stripped lower extra little sheet of paper that's shop policy and it has a checklist.

- Stripped lower, no LPK, no nothing

- Lower with LPK but no pistol grip

- Lower with pistol grip but with BB

Etc. The customer initials the box next to the description that matches his configuration and signs the "I pinky swear" line at the bottom.

[CHS]

Etc. The customer initials the box next to the description that matches his configuration and signs the "I pinky swear" line at the bottom.

I like it.

Simple.
Effective.
CYA.

[donbing]

[QUOTE=sierratangofoxtrotunion;1941657]Idea:

Have a stripped lower extra little sheet of paper that's shop policy and it has a checklist.

- Stripped lower, no LPK, no nothing

- Lower with LPK but no pistol grip

- Lower with pistol grip but with BB

Etc. The customer initials the box next to the description that matches his configuration and signs the "I pinky swear" line at the bottom.[/QUOTE

We're headed toward the the documents that TenPercent uses, just waiting for final approval from our counsel. It's a little more in depth and someone really can't say 'I didn't know the law' if we've got his signature on the dotted line. Problem is getting people to actually read before signing.

The pinky swear thing would work unless they're Yakuza but then it probably wouldn't matter.

[Gator Monroe]

a 5 OR 10 ROUND "SHORTY" AR mag should be mandated to go with BB or B16 and stripped lower to get them out door of FFL also !

[DarkHorse]

Just wanted to chime in:
I went to RCGE today to do a PPT on a Stag OLL I found here on CalGuns, and Dave handled everything very quickly and efficiently. I called last night to make sure the seller and I had all our ducks in a row, and spoke to Dave as well, as I know him socially. When the seller and I showed up, the rifle had a Prince 50 and 10 round mag already installed. They put the lower in jail, and I was able to take the upper home (I'm fondling, err, cleaning it right now). The staff was great, and since I knew what had to be done ahead of time, everything went smoothly. I don't think it's too big of a deal for them to require certain parts be installed in order to transfer. Just prepare yourself and call ahead of time. And, they charged the correct legal amount for a PPT, $35. I think it's a great shop, and I will be returning when my budget allows for some new goodies.

[shirow]

I also completed a transfer today on something a bit exotic and everything went smooth and efficient. Dave was great and everyone was happy. Thanks Don for greasing the skids with yer staff.

(Kelly was great too he showed me a bunch of shotguns. I need to buy something major from you guys real soon.)

[s&w5906]

I was in RCGE on Friday 01/23/09 to pick up the lower which caused this posting. I also spoke to Don for a few minutes regarding the transaction and other stuff. Like I said before RCGE is a great place to spend your cash at, and great people.. Thanks Don once again and ill be back in in a few days...

[Omega13device]

To Don and other gun store owners with policies like this: you need to get real. You are selling guns. Every gun that goes out your door could be used illegally and/or in a dangerous or deadly way.

If you think that by putting this one additional step in place, for just one class of firearms, is really reducing your liability for anything, you are deluding yourselves. As has been said many times already, you have no control of what happens when people leave the store. Moreover, since you don't do this for ALL the firearms you sell/transfer, you're leaving yourself open to questions about why you don't take the same level of care with those other firearms that go out your door. If I were a lawyer hired by the family of someone killed by a pistol you had sold, I would be very interested in why you didn't bother to make sure THAT buyer followed all the laws. By creating a new standard of care, and then not following it consistently, you may have increased your own liability. And when it comes to the DOJ, what if they come after you for someone who bought a pistol from you and then added a threaded barrel?

The DOJ hasn't said the bullet button is "approved" or "disapproved" anyway. So I don't see what you're buying yourself. One thing that HAS been stated clearly by the DOJ is that stripped off-list lowers are legal. Follow the law and stand up for yourself. DOJ intimidation of FFLs over OLLs is WRONG and if you don't like looking over your shoulder then get an appointment with Jerry Brown's office, drive over there (you're a heck of a lot closer than most of us) and give him an earful. You are a legitimate business owner and you shouldn't have to be worried when you're following the law!

[12voltguy]

We write it up as a 'receiver, stripped', no caliber is noted as it doesn't have an upper. I'm just interested in covering the shop (and my) liability, so hence the bullet button requirement. Sure, it you could tell me all day long that it's going to be a .22lr build, but it doesn't mean that it will always stay a .22lr build. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that a large proportion of those who have a .22lr upper probably owns at least one other upper in a centerfire chambering.

I don't want to be 65 years old (year 2031), retired and living in another state and be getting the subpeona from the Superior Court of Sacramento County 'You are hearby required to appear...'just because somebody told me in 2009 that 'it's only going to be mated to a .22lr upper...I promise!

Sure, people can take just about anything and make it illegal, and that's not just guns. It only makes sense that we try to take reasonable precautions to protect ourselves.

Don

you can still be hit with a subpeona, you can't prevent that

[donbing]

response

12volt, You're right. Subpeonas can always show up. Nothing we can do about that. We just want something to stand on. Unless I retire to Costa Rica.

Omega, I'll agree with your statement "Every gun that goes out your door could be used illegally and/or in a dangerous and deadly way". We don't have control over the firearm once it leaves our custody. All the more reason to take further precautions, especially in regards to what's currently in the Govt's crosshairs, namely semiautos and AWs. Any time I read the local news and see that some knucklehead has done something really stupid with a firearm I always think 'was that sold by us?'. Why should I be concerned about the actions others take with firearms we've sold? Just ask the former FFL holder in Washington State whose Bushmaster was used by the Beltway Shooters a few years ago.

As for doing this for ALL firearms we transfer, well, you're quite the prophet. As it looks, we're going to be implementing some additional reading/signatures and initialing that will be required (Oh no, I hope THAT isn't too much to ask either) when transferring semiautos. Since this whole exercise only concerns semi autos and AW issues, I don't see any reason to include other types of firearms.

As for why we feel that we need this extenuating policy for certain firearms? For those who are not in the industry, it's only 'WHAT IF'? For those who are in the business, we've got to do our best not to put ourselves into the position so that when "WHAT IF" becomes 'WHAT NOW?' we're not with our tails in the wind any further than necessary.

DOJ hasn't approved/disproved the BB. But due to 'can I do it' or 'I pinky swear that it's only going to be a rimfire build but I just wanted to try out that 5.56 upper just once' human urges, for now, the 'retarded' policy stands, simply because there are folks who may actually think all laws are FUD and may hesitate to abide by them...just look at a few of the earlier threads and you'll get the idea. Like I said though a new policy with additional reading is being examined.

We are standing up for ourselves. We realize OL is ok and that's why we're not doing what others are doing and just saying NO. Whether it's reasonable to you or others may be important, what's more important is that I can feel reasonably warm and fuzzy about the whole situation...because if I didn't there'd be one less OL friendly FFL in California.

As for visiting Jerry and crew, we'll pass. Sure, we're a legit FFL and we make sure we stay within the rules. But we'd prefer to try to stay under the radar rather than call anyone who wields regulatory control over us and say 'Hey, you suck lemons!'. I wouldn't want to risk giving anyone an earful who can return the favor with a D cell flashlight but not in my ear! We have a healthy respect to those who wear the windbreakers with the big letters.

Tell you what, buy me out so I can retire comfortably. Then you can run the shop and listen to the BS for a year or two. I'd take odds that you wouldn't be as interested in risking your nest egg over principles. Gotta remember, it's pretty hard to sell guns if you lose a license or permit.

[BB63Squid]

Sacramento slowly keeps chipping away. If this continues we will be just like the UK. Sad really.