Can we have a background check without registry?

[bbbppc]

Why can't we have access to a NICS type system? Maybe something we can enter information about the purchaser and get a pass fail response. No gun serial numbers. The seller could get a number issued for the backround check as proof of running it. This is of course for states that allow private party gun sales without an FFL. Hell they could make an app so you can do it from your phone.

It could be run for other reasons as well, so just running the background check doesn't necessarily mean it's for a gun purchase. Also there could be laws against its misuse. There could also be laws against selling to someone who fails. The buyer if failed by mistake should have a way to clear up any mistakes in the system. Some of these laws probably already exist and could be applied to this type of system.

[mstlaurent]

Make a system where you can apply for a background check card. Possession of the card indicates that you have passed a background check. If the seller wishes to know whether or not the buyer has passed a background check, he can ask to see the buyer's background check card. You can verify the validity of the card by entering its serial number on a website. If the serial number checks out the website shows a photograph of the bearer and parrots back the information on the card. This way the buyer doesn't have to give any sensitive information to the seller, avoids identity theft.

I would fully support a system like that only if it was 100% voluntary. Why? Because unless the FBI puts a camera in every farmhouse, doghouse, and outhouse in America, it's going to be completely unenforceable, so it will be effectively "voluntary" anyway. Let the law-abiding people remain law-abiding, don't criminalize them for the sake of some stupid background check scheme that will do nothing to prevent crime.

[robcoe]

You could have a background check without registration.

Have a website or even an app where the seller enters their information, they get a clear/not clear(so that they are not surprised if they get an erroneous fail) and if clear a code valid for 48 hours(this would be free, no fees attached since this apparently is such an important thing it should just come out of the BATF budget).

They give code to seller, seller enters code into the same site/app and is told whether or not it is valid, if valid proceed and get a conformation that the code was good sent to an email address.

This also prevents any issues with giving out personal info to the person you are buying from, since all they will have is a conformation code, not your name, address, ssn, ect.

You have a background check, no registration, and while it still suffers from the same "but what if someone just doesn't run the check or uses bogus info" that is unavoidable without universal registration(and not really even then since any halfway competent machinist can make receivers). Also could be run for background checks for jobs and the like so that there is no direct tie to "check run = gun sold".

[Milsurp Collector]

Can we have a background check without registr[ation]?

That's the way it is done in almost all states outside of California.

But what if we came up with a universal background check that is not enforced by registration?

Since few states outside of California have gun registration, even states with "universal" background checks, that's the way it is done in almost all states outside of California.

I know the primary argument against universal background check, that without registration, you have no way of verifying if someone performed a background check when he/she sold the firearm to someone else via PPT. But what if we didn't verify it? What if we enforced it via undercover agents (with a fake ID that is flagged in the NICS) that goes around checking for sellers who make the illegal sale? (because if the seller did perform the background check, he/she will know that the undercover agent is not cleared to purchase a firearm). Could this work? Wouldn't the possibility of getting caught by not performing background checks force most law-abiding citizens to perform background checks when selling firearms?

Since few states outside of California have gun registration, that's the only way the law could be enforced in those states, with undercover stings. But when Oregon passed a "universal" background check law last year (as in most states, there is no gun registration in Oregon) most Oregon sheriffs said they would not devote any time or resources to enforce the law.

But not for PPTs in other states, right?

Most states do not require private parties (non-dealers) to perform background checks for gun sales, including at gun shows.

I may not, I've only become a gun owner in 2015.

If you have been a gun owner only in California, it is easy to assume that what you have to go through in California is "normal" and the way it is in the rest of the country. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Most states don't have gun registration.
Most states don't have gun registration.
Most states don't have gun registration.

Most states don't require background checks for private party gun sales, including at gun shows.
Most states don't require background checks for private party gun sales, including at gun shows.
Most states don't require background checks for private party gun sales, including at gun shows.

Most states don't have any waiting period at all, much less a 10 day waiting period. Criminals are "put in jail", not guns.
Most states don't have any waiting period at all, much less a 10 day waiting period. Criminals are "put in jail", not guns.
Most states don't have any waiting period at all, much less a 10 day waiting period. Criminals are "put in jail", not guns.

Most states don't require you to pass a written test at any time before buying a firearm.
Most states don't require you to pass a written test at any time before buying a firearm.
Most states don't require you to pass a written test at any time before buying a firearm.

Only California, Maryland, Massachusetts, and DC have an approved handgun roster.
Only California, Maryland, Massachusetts, and DC have an approved handgun roster.
Only California, Maryland, Massachusetts, and DC have an approved handgun roster.

Only California, Maryland, New Jersey, and DC limit you to one handgun purchase every 30 days.
Only California, Maryland, New Jersey, and DC limit you to one handgun purchase every 30 days.
Only California, Maryland, New Jersey, and DC limit you to one handgun purchase every 30 days.

When it comes to guns, most states are nothing like California.
When it comes to guns, most states are nothing like California.
When it comes to guns, most states are nothing like California.



Now some guys are thinking, "we already know how bad it is in California, you don't have to remind us", but a lot of short time or young California gun owners don't know how bad it is. If someone has known only California-style gun control and are used to it, they start thinking that is normal, and like President Obama they think other states are "lax" and need more California-style gun control. That's backwards. Other states are normal, and California needs less control.

[CSACANNONEER]

1991 for dealer sales
1998 for PPT

Nope, like Quiet posted. CA has had a DROS system since 1924. I recently received a print out of what guns are registered to me and found out that a FFL sent in a DROS form on a C&B revolver I bought in 1987. Other handguns I purchased from FFLs prior to 1991 also showed up.

[Flyron]

Can we have a background check without registry?

BG checks thru an FFL are fine, but why a 10 day wait period. Either your cleared or not?

[IVC]

Democrats don't want background checks WITHOUT registration. They won't hear about it. They ONLY want REGISTRATION.

The problem with registration is not that something will happen immediately. It is that appetites will change as new possibilities open. Think about CA magazines - first they were grandfathered in, then they became a "nuisance," now they are getting outright banned.

With a registration database, we are one step away from *national* ban on 50 BMG, or 5.7x28, or ban on X-frames, or AWB without grandfathering, or federal "safe roster," etc. If Congress could pass Obamacare, they can easily pass one/all of the above when the correct majority happens. Remember 1994 Feinstein and "if I could I would've banned ALL handguns?" Part of the reason was that there was no registration so it was far fetched. In today's forced party line discipline, who wants to bet they'd do it given a chance and having a registry?

We have to start calling it "universal registration" and exposing the true reason we don't want UBCs.

[bonusweb]

Ask people in the UK if background checks lead to registration then leads to confiscation.

https://youtu.be/DKlpn8NzWGY

[Flyron]

Nope, like Quiet posted. CA has had a DROS system since 1924. I recently received a print out of what guns are registered to me and found out that a FFL sent in a DROS form on a C&B revolver I bought in 1987. Other handguns I purchased from FFLs prior to 1991 also showed up.

Where do you get that report?

[Defy Concealment]

Why can't we have access to a NICS type system? Maybe something we can enter information about the purchaser and get a pass fail response. No gun serial numbers. The seller could get a number issued for the backround check as proof of running it. This is of course for states that allow private party gun sales without an FFL. Hell they could make an app so you can do it from your phone.

This was an idea I was playing with the other day with some friends. I don't have a problem with the check in of itself, but I have a problem that my name and info with my purchases are sitting around somewhere that the government has access too.

My idea was, what if there was a "generic" background check system. It would be the exact same system used for gun sales, rental applications, employment applications, and any other form of "background check" that any company, person, LE agency would use. Everyone would use the same one. It also would take no more info than what is absolutely necessary. It would be all online so its quick and easy. I walk into a gun store, say I want that one, they take my name and drivers license (maybe social too i suppose), type it into the system, and it either spits out a big red X or a bright green Check mark. simple as that.

That being said I know as well as the rest of you that background checks really don't do anything, but I would be willing to "compromise" if it was a way to ditch "registration" and the 10 day wait.

[ordc]

That's the way it is done in almost all states outside of California.



Since few states outside of California have gun registration, even states with "universal" background checks, that's the way it is done in almost all states outside of California.




Since few states outside of California have gun registration, that's the only way the law could be enforced in those states, with undercover stings. But when Oregon passed a "universal" background check law last year (as in most states, there is no gun registration in Oregon) most Oregon sheriffs said they would not devote any time or resources to enforce the law.



Most states do not require private parties (non-dealers) to perform background checks for gun sales, including at gun shows.



If you have been a gun owner only in California, it is easy to assume that what you have to go through in California is "normal" and the way it is in the rest of the country. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Most states don't have gun registration.
Most states don't have gun registration.
Most states don't have gun registration.

Most states don't require background checks for private party gun sales, including at guns shows.
Most states don't require background checks for private party gun sales, including at guns shows.
Most states don't require background checks for private party gun sales, including at guns shows.

Most states don't have any waiting period at all, much less a 10 day waiting period. Criminals are "put in jail", not guns.
Most states don't have any waiting period at all, much less a 10 day waiting period. Criminals are "put in jail", not guns.
Most states don't have any waiting period at all, much less a 10 day waiting period. Criminals are "put in jail", not guns.

Most states don't require you to pass a written test at any time before buying a firearm.
Most states don't require you to pass a written test at any time before buying a firearm.
Most states don't require you to pass a written test at any time before buying a firearm.

Only California, Maryland, Massachusetts, and DC have an approved handgun roster.
Only California, Maryland, Massachusetts, and DC have an approved handgun roster.
Only California, Maryland, Massachusetts, and DC have an approved handgun roster.

Only California, Maryland, New Jersey, and DC limit you to one handgun purchase every 30 days.
Only California, Maryland, New Jersey, and DC limit you to one handgun purchase every 30 days.
Only California, Maryland, New Jersey, and DC limit you to one handgun purchase every 30 days.

When it comes to guns, most states are nothing like California.
When it comes to guns, most states are nothing like California.
When it comes to guns, most states are nothing like California.



Now some guys are thinking, "we already know how bad it is in California, you don't have to remind us", but a lot of short time or young California gun owners don't know how bad it is. If someone has known only California-style gun control and are used to it, they start thinking that is normal, and like President Obama they think other states are "lax" and need more California-style gun control. That's backwards. Other states are normal, and California needs less control.

Having lived and travelled in other states and abroad . . .

What you wrote is well said.

I feel like an idiot living here because gun laws to me are indicative of a whole host of other freedom killing laws and regulations that do exist as well.

I encourage people to google the "State Freedom Index" by George Mason University. California is ranked 49th. New York, a distant 50th!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ke6guj]

Also every twenty years, the saved 4473s gets turned in.

actually, after 20 years, the FFL can destroy them. they do not have to be turned in. There is a similar regulation for CADOJ paperwork (not sure of the timeframe for that)

Not many gun stores last that long, so lots of fairly current forms are collected.

correct, if the FFL closes or goes through a license change, then they have to send in all the 4473s that are less than 20-years old.

[morfeeis]

Been happening on every dealer sale since 1968
4473 is not "registration".
The paperwork does not leave the FFL until they quit the biz and let their license expire.
Then ALL of their 4473s are shipped to the BATFE who shoves them in a warehouse someplace.

NY State Police Using Form 4473 Records To Find Owners of Illegal Assault Weapons

http://investmentwatchblog.com/ny-state-police-using-form-4473-records-to-find-owners-of-illegal-assault-weapons/

[TeddyBallgame]

if they are really interested in background checks, all they need to do is issue identification cards with a little strip or number...the LGS runs the card, shows you are not prohibited, then you can purchase your firearm...doesn't have to have any direct correlation to whatever you're planning to buy, just that you're GTG

maybe you buy a firearm that day, maybe you don't

im sure if they can issue millions of EBT cards, and, keep them updated, surely they can do the same for people who want to purchase a firearm

[beenawhile]

if they are really interested in background checks, all they need to do is issue identification cards with a little strip or number...the LGS runs the card, shows you are not prohibited, then you can purchase your firearm...doesn't have to have any direct correlation to whatever you're planning to buy, just that you're GTG

maybe you buy a firearm that day, maybe you don't

im sure if they can issue millions of EBT cards, and, keep them updated, surely they can do the same for people who want to purchase a firearm

This right here, but they are in no way interested in making it easier for us to buy guns without them getting their grubby dick beaters on as much info as possible.