PPT fiasco

[highpower]

I saw your post on that. Pretty cool little guns. This is the one I got yesterday.

[halifax]

I didn't even bother reading past this sentence
The choice is pretty clear, use the LGS your friend went to, dont give your business to the LGS thats ignorant of the law, plain and simple.

That doesn't make any sense...the "LGS your friend went to" is the one that is ignorant of the law.

[CSACANNONEER]

I saw your post on that. Pretty cool little guns. This is the one I got yesterday.

That's nice but too heavy to use as a cuff link.

[mexicangunlover]

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulin...ng-2001-5.htmlhttp://www.atf.gov/publications/news...er-2010-06.pdfhttp://www.atf.gov/publications/news...er-1999-09.pdfhttp://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulin...ing-2010-6.pdfThe CA "Brown Card" is not considered government issued, and therefore cannot be used for ATF purposes. The buyer will need to obtain a DMV printout from the CA DMV clerk/office in order to satisfy the government-issued requirement.http://www.naag.org.

We trust this correspondence has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have any further questions, please feel free to contact your local ATF Industry Operations Office. A list of ATF Office telephone numbers can be found at http://www.atf.gov/field.

Regards,
Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF

His DL/ID is still valid and all the brown card is a change of address which is used to show the new current home address and its issued by a state government entity. FEDS have no clue of state government rules so a new ruling is in order...

[alfred1222]

Isn't the requirement 2 forms of proof? Not necessarily an I.D or DL.

Car registration and utility bill should work.

No, an ID or DL or passport must be one of the two forms of id

[CSACANNONEER]

His DL/ID is still valid and all the brown card is a change of address which is used to show the new current home address and its issued by a state government entity. FEDS have no clue of state government rules so a new ruling is in order...

Well, the Feds are the ones who decide what is acceptable on a Federal level. Even if you think they are wrong, until there is a new AFT opinion, I would advise you to adhere to this one. But, IANAL and anything I say is for entertainment purposes so, do whatever you want to.

[halifax]

His DL/ID is still valid and all the brown card is a change of address which is used to show the new current home address and its issued by a state government entity. FEDS have no clue of state government rules so a new ruling is in order...

He is still required to satisfy all Federal requirements. Specifically, he is required to show a government-issued document with his current name and current physical address to satisfy the FEDERAL requirement outlined on Form 4473 Line 20b. The Feds will not accept the brown card per their ruling you quoted.

Instructions:
Question 20.b. Alternate Documentation: Licensees may accept a combination of valid government-issued documents to satisfy the identification document requirements of the law. The required valid government-issued photo identification document bearing the name, photograph, date of birth of transferee may be supplemented by another valid government-issued document showing the transferee's residence address...

[Josh3239]

There are two separate laws in play; California's requirement for the proof of residence and the federal government's requirement for a government issued document with the correct address on it. And you have to appease both.

California, for proof of residence accepts utility bill, vehicle registration, property deed, lease/rental agreement and some government issued documents such as a CCW or guard card. Some documents don't work like a hunting/fishing license.

For address change, the Feds do not have an accepted list of documents like California, you can only go on what they most recently accepted and it changes all the time. I've been doing this for nearly 4 years. We have never accepted the brown cards and we haven't accepted interim driver's license in a few years. The fact that some shops accept them in not proof that the ATF accepts them, if anything it is proof that those shops do such little business that they do not get audited by the ATF, but when/if they do their auditor will tell them not to take it. We get audited atleast once a year. If it is handwritten, the ATF won't accept it.

My advice to CGN regarding this issue, dont ask CGN. Ask the people who've actually spoke to ATF about it. ATF does NOT accept the brown card. If I accepted as many brown cards as I saw I'd have been fired long ago. The reason why people here think it is acceptable when it isn't is because their business and their butt isn't on the line. When an FFL accepts it he absorbs all the liability and will receive the penalty from the ATF, the customer receives no contact from the ATF about this because this is about the business of firearms.

Most of this can be found by reading the 4473, specifically the section that explains box 20B, which is filled out by the dealer. As I said the ATF doesn't keep a list of accepted documents, it changes at their will and you can only go on what they presently accept until they say otherwise. The brown card I don't believe has ever been accepted in the time I've been in the business (4 years) and I've probably sold about 2,000-3,000 guns.

[Claro]

Just go to the DMV and get a CA ID card with the current address. on it.

[Spyder]

...or do these FFL's just not know what they are doing?

This. 9/10 of the FFL's I have used, make up their own rules and policies and claim it is law. One particular one "Just had a DOJ and ATF audit last week" ever.single.time. I've ever been there. They are THE most audited gun shop in the entire world, having approximately 52 audits a year.

Find a good one and stick with them. It can be difficult.

[CSACANNONEER]

This. 9/10 of the FFL's I have used, make up their own rules and policies and claim it is law.

The one at Angeles insisted that for a PPT of a long gun both buyer and seller need to produce TWO valid forms of ID. When I asked him "when did the law change", he told me it's always been that way. Really? Always? Anyway, we left and went to a Addax to do the PPT.

[ifilef]

RE: HANDGUNS

This thread may shed some light on the matter:

See post #41: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...4#post16765244

The understanding I have had is that the DL (CA ID cards as well) can not be used to satisfy CA residency requirements. It is used for identity and age purposes, so it may be irrelevant for purposes other than identity re CA law. CA requires an additional document to prove residency whether your DL recites current residence address or not.

So, I don't think having a brown card is at all relevant to the issues and will not help because it can not be used to prove residency in CA, as it is part of the DL, which proves identity, only, so far as CA is concerned. And 'clear evidence of identity and age' is proved by DL photo and DOB, and not by whatever address is on your DL/CA ID card.

If the CA DL displays current residence address, it is sufficient to prove residency under federal law, but not CA law.

But where it does not show current residence address, then another government document must show current residence address to satisfy the feds re their proof of residency, and will in turn satisfy CA as well.

Try to think of it this way: What does one need to prove identity? And what does one need to prove CA resident?

Average citizen needs a CA DL or CA ID card to prove identity. It doesn't matter if residence address is on that card. If it isn't, though, the Feds require that you produce a government document that does show your current residence address.

So, a driver's license without current residence address and a car registration with current residence address? Enough to satisfy both Feds and CA? Yes? Maybe I have it wrong, been a while since that thread. Reasoning: DL proves identity, car registration is a government document to satisfy feds and incidentally CA as well as to residence, coupled with same address on the DROS form.

Current CA DL, say, with an old residence address or PO Box: satisfies CA identity requirement and Fed identity requirement, but neither CA nor Fed residence requirements, and Feds mandate another government document to prove residence in that instance. That government document will also satisfy CA residence requirement if it recites current residence address and has an expiration date.

Current CA DL with current residence address: satisfies CA and Fed identity requirements, and Fed residency requirement, but not CA residency requirement.
Don't need another government issued document in that scenario, and can go with lease, utility bill, etc.

Easiest scenario with least hassle: current CA DL and current CA vehicle registration both reciting current residence address. Done! Why?

DL- Identity for both, residency for feds, Vehicle registration- residency for CA. But one should be able to go forward with alternative proof of residence to satisfy CA under its regulations, and the feds are happy for residence purposes if the DL recites current residence address... so, one would think where the DL recites current residence address a lease, utility bill, etc. in lieu of a car registration (a government document) should be just fine. I've been persuaded that secondary proof of residence only has meaning due to the fed requirement and the CA requirement, not that CA requires two proofs of residency, just one, and the DL or ID card does not cut it with CA for proving residence, even if residence address is recited on it. IOW, fed and state standards each must be satisfied, but it is possible to satisfy both with just one government document other than DL where DL does NOT recite current residence address.

Sorry for redundancy, and I am not giving legal opinion, just some of my research, thoughts and observations.

GGGgggeeessssshhhh...Comments? kemasa? Anyone?

Addendum: At one time I thought that a CA DL showing a post office address coupled with a CA ID card (government document) showing current residence address might pass muster. Was that correct or incorrect? Please tell me why.

[ifilef]

Isn't the requirement 2 forms of proof? Not necessarily an I.D or DL.

Car registration and utility bill should work.

Valid car registration as a government document would be all that is required to satisfy both- feds and state, re proof of residency, even if DL has your old address, provided that you state it as your current residence address on the DROS form and it matches the residence address on the car registration. At least that is my understanding, and my understanding is that a DL re CA law is relevant only for proof of identity, but re federal law, it is not only valid for proof of identity, but is proof of residency also if it states what is your current residence address. See my post, above, which reflects that understanding, which may or may not be correct.

[SLO1911Fan]

First shop was the gun room in Elk Grove and 2nd was the gun range in Sacramento.

So what I'm gathering so far is that the brown card and utility bill with matching address should have been sufficient?

I think people are getting confused between state and federal regulations.

The state requires the photo ID (expired won't work, per doj), FSC, and a second proof of residence.

Federal requires a photo ID at your current address, OR a government printout with your current address.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-form-identification-must-licensee-obtain-transferee-firearm

Most gun stores have completely stopped accepting the brown change of address cards because we were instructed to.

[ifilef]

I think people are getting confused between state and federal regulations.

The state requires the photo ID (expired won't work, per doj), FSC, and a second proof of residence.

Federal requires a photo ID at your current address, OR a government printout with your current address.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-form-identification-must-licensee-obtain-transferee-firearm

Most gun stores have completely stopped accepting the brown change of address cards because we were instructed to.

Thanks for the ATF link. I did read it and I think the second paragraph illustrates that the DL need not contain the current residence address-that is where another government document can be used. It uses a passport as an example, but the reasoning can be applied to the driver license. And that second paragraph opens with the sentence "A combination of government issued documents may be used to meet the requirements of an identification document."

It further states: "For example, a passport which contains the name, date of birth, and photograph of the holder may be combined with a voter or vehicle registration card containing the residence address of the transferee in order to comply with the identification document requirements."

So, I think that you'll get by just fine with feds if a driver license with an old residence address or P O Box is combined with a valid car registration containing the current residence address and that address is so declared on the 4473.

It's less likely to result in an issue if purchaser presents a CA DL and registration card both of which recite current residence address but I don't believe the law requires it.
And the conflict in address is resolved by the purchaser's signature basically attesting to the stated residence address, which matches the registration card as the current residence address.

We really should not have to go to DMV every time we move to purchase firearms. I will be moving within the next year, and I'm going to need to go to AAA to change my registration and get a printout for my new address, but leave the old address on my driver's license.

If you were instructed not to accept brown cards I can understand why that is so. It is not an official government printout. Who so instructed- feds or CA?

But my contention is that address on DL doesn't trump everything beyond it for purposes of Fed ID requisites- FFL should be confident that DL is valid and customer has signed 4473 and provided a valid registration with matching current residence address to satisfy Fed ID AND RESIDENCE requirements.