Active Shooting Downtown Charleston SC - Multiple Dead

[chiefblackbeard]

My intention was never for you to apply that definition personally. But its an interesting response none the less.

I do reject your premise that a free society leads to lunatics going on killing sprees, and that the U.S. leads the world in that capacity.

FYI the "Wild West" was nowhere near as wild as you seem to have been led to believe.

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I know it wasn't your intention, it was the intention of the guy who posted this originally so i was responding to him.

i believe we need to stop believing that the US is the only free society in the world. there are lots of countries that are free and don't have these incidents too. Saying that I believe free societies lead to massacres is a bit of a misrepresentation. believing we are so awesome is what helps the government get away with a lot.
but that is another topic. i am not against gun ownership just want people to face realities of the choices we make.

[WASR10]

Understood and thanks for the clarifications. But I still reject the claim that other 'free' countries don't have the incidents we do.

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[Noble Cause]

i think it's about time we face the fact that easy access to guns is to blame for these massacres. the people who want to commit these crimes can come by capable weapons quite easily and you cannot impose on everyone in the country to carry at all times for their protection.
the numbers show that a abysmally small proportion of incidents are stopped by an armed citizen intervening.
even in world war 2,on an average only 14% of American soldiers in battles fired their weapons (something which was discovered and corrected later via changes to training as the numbers in the Vietnam war were better).
point being that most people who are not in the path of the attacker are going to do exactly what you expect them to do when the lead starts flying, ie sh*t their pants and stay put even if they are carrying.
See these massacres as a price to pay to keep your second amendment rights. and you better use those rights against tyranny when the need arises, or all those innocent people who die in these massacres have died in vain.

now in today's world recognising tyranny is not as simple as pointing to taxation without representation. it takes a little more education, understanding and effort to know exactly how the government is scr*wing you over.
Armed with this knowledge, you influence your representative to set things right. then you raise awareness and protest. if all else fails you take up arms against tyranny.
so for a group this interested in protecting rights and freedom (it is okay if you are just protecting your hobby), I would expect a lot of you to know exactly what legislation is being enacted right now that effects your states/professions, be in touch with your representative upon multiple economic policy issues etc be ready to protest about a couple that are not going right and willing to organize and sacrifice if the government doesn't back down from it's tyrannical stand. Now we get to the extremely sexy possibility of you getting to use your tacticool ar15 in combat.

forgive my arrogance, but my guess is that most of us are not sufficiently in touch with the current legislative climate to really qualify as guardians of freedom.
the good news is that so long as we continue to mistake a tacticool piece of steel for freedom, we will not even notice how the government is really scr*wing us and for precisely this reason, they are never going to take the guns away.
and who has ever used their second amendment rights for anything important? in the last ten years, we have seen the worst heist in history followed by the government bailing out the thieves while rest of us paid the price and suffered the recession. been dragged into the Iraq war on fabricated data and lies which has been exposed, and records of which exists in the public domain. respect for men in uniform is not just thanking them for their service, it is making sure someone pays when they die in wars fabricated on lies. where are the protests? where are the gun toting guardians of the constitution fighting tyranny?
they probably feel good bearing arms and thinking they are ready to fight tyranny when it comes and are too dumb to see it scr**ing them over on a daily basis.

the constitution is designed to be a dynamic document and not set in stone. the constitution is modified and modernised with time.

Defensive gun use in the USA each year is estimated at:

High: Kleck and Gertz show between 1 to 2.5 million DGUs in the United States each year.

Middle: Approximately 1 million DGU incidents in the United States.

Low: Cited by Hemenway show approximately 55,000-80,000 such uses each year.

Defensive Gun Use:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use

Note that Hemenway is a noted Anti Gun "researcher", but even his low end
figures are significant.

Regarding your perception Calgunners don't know what's going on in
the legislature pertaining to our 2nd Amendment Rights:

Legislative Information / Contact Tools
Are located at the front end of Calguns:

http://www.calguns.net/

Also, the 2nd Amendment forum on Calguns is quite active in discussing same.

Members of NRA receive Email Alerts on pending legislation from NRA ILA
or can check on their website:

https://www.nraila.org/

Are you a member of the largest Pro 2nd Amendment Group in America,
chiefblackbeard ? I refer of course, to the NRA.


Spree / Mass shootings are a rare event for nation of about 319 Million people.

Don't believe me ? Answer the following question:

Are you more likely to be killed riding your bicycle, or by a Spree killer ?

Answer..... Bicycle riding:

In 2012... 734 people killed
In 2013... 743 people killed

Source NHTSA May-2015:

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/812151.pdf

Compare that with a Congressional Research Report published in 2013
which counted 78 Mass Killings incidents over a period of about 30 years:
1982 to 2012

Total killed in Mass Shootings in those 30 years = 547

Source:
Congressional Research Report
Public Mass Shootings in the United States:
Selected Implications for Federal Public
Health and Safety Policy

https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43004.pdf

I won't make this post any longer, so I will leave out a detailed
discussion on such things as:

Gun Free <Killing> Zones.

CCW... for instance, stats show in every state allowed, crime either decreased,
or at the very least stayed the same.
(No "Blood in the Streets" like the Antis Predicted)


Noble

[Sigbird]

well I am not scared to be exposed to things that offend me, I am actively looking for data to get my beliefs to match reality as closely as possible and I feel everyone should do the same.

with regards to being responsible for my own safety, I assume it refers to not relying on a police state to disarm everybody in order to feel safe. It is fine by me if we prefer free ownership and distribution of arms and be responsible for our own safety, so long as we consciously accept the trade off that inevitably this will lead to lunatic killing sprees. like i said in my post, that is the price we pay. the US has more of them than the rest of the world combined.
hypocrisy about the second amendment and rights to form militias serves no purpose in that discussion.
the second amendment was intended for politically conscious citizens to retain a deterrent to state tyranny (we all know how well that's going) not for us to live perpetually in the wild west.


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So, you are another one of those blind people that think all killing sprees can only happen with guns and that the gun does the shooting and not the person pulling the trigger. Do you also feel that cars drive drunk and spoons make people fat? Just curious. If you make it harder for a lunatic to purchase a gun, he will find easier means to start a massacre that has proven to kill more or the same amount as any assault rifle will kill. Did you not hear about the mental person in Austria who drove his car into a crowd of people and I believe killed 8 over the weekend? I guess he didn't have a gun.

[chiefblackbeard]

please find me one country where per capita random people killed by lunatic attacks is more than the US. please share the numbers. i think you would know the numbers off the top of your head.

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[Sigbird]

And your point is? You seem to be stuck on guns as the only way to massacre people. I'm guessing for every 9 people killed in a gun related massacre, there's at least 100 killed by drunk drivers. You can't mention guns and leave out the most deadly weapon in America, which is the motor vehicle. How do you think America would like it if we had a 10 day wait to purchase a vehicle, they wouldn't.

[Noble Cause]

please find me one country where per capita random people killed by lunatic attacks is more than the US. please share the numbers. i think you would know the numbers off the top of your head.

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We compared mass shooting incidents across countries is to calculate the

Calculating it this way shows the United States in the upper half of the list of 11 countries, ranking higher than Australia, Canada, China, England, France, Germany and Mexico.

Source: Politifact.com Published Jun-18-2015

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/22/barack-obama/barack-obama-correct-mass-killings-dont-happen-oth/

Noble

[antiseen]

Source: Politifact.com Published Jun-18-2015

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/22/barack-obama/barack-obama-correct-mass-killings-dont-happen-oth/

Noble

Yoink.

[chiefblackbeard]

Regarding your perception Calgunners don't know what's going on in
the legislature pertaining to our 2nd Amendment Rights:

Legislative Information / Contact Tools
Are located at the front end of Calguns:

http://www.calguns.net/

Also, the 2nd Amendment forum on Calguns is quite active in discussing same.

Members of NRA receive Email Alerts on pending legislation from NRA ILA
or can check on their website:

https://www.nraila.org/

Are you a member of the largest Pro 2nd Amendment Group in America,
chiefblackbeard ? I refer of course, to the NRA.




Noble

i wasn't referring to legislation pertaining to 2nd amendment, I said pertaining to your professions/state.
the 2nd amendment is meant to give you the right to bear arms to protect the rest of the stuff.
using the second amendment to bear arms to protect the 2nd amendment is like buying a gun so you can use that gun to protect that gun. The NRA is an active watchdog for 2nd amendment rights, but to be in a position where you decide to use those rights, you have to know where their use is warranted, what the government is doing that effects your lives and those of people abroad in your name. which needs more awareness. if you never reach the point where you are writing a letter to your representative over a particular piece of legislation (not just gun rights) you will never reach the point where you ever use the second amendment rights.


there fbi statistics cited refer to felons shot by civilians while attempting to commit a crime. ( it includes home defense and other stuff)

[chiefblackbeard]

And your point is? You seem to be stuck on guns as the only way to massacre people. I'm guessing for every 9 people killed in a gun related massacre, there's at least 100 killed by drunk drivers. You can't mention guns and leave out the most deadly weapon in America, which is the motor vehicle. How do you think America would like it if we had a 10 day wait to purchase a vehicle, they wouldn't.

you are right about the motor vehicle and most people will admit that cars cause deaths but we are willing to risk losing as many people to motorvehicle accidents because of the value they provides to our lives, and the lives they sometimes save. my point is we must agree that guns result in the death of some people every year that wouldn't have died if the access to guns was more restricted but we are willing to risk those many lives for the value they provide us and the people they sometimes save.
also you have a test that you must pass and have a certain level of physical and mental fitness before you can drive a car. something similar must apply to guns.

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[Noble Cause]

i wasn't referring to legislation pertaining to 2nd amendment, I said pertaining to your professions/state.
the 2nd amendment is meant to give you the right to bear arms to protect the rest of the stuff.
using the second amendment to bear arms to protect the 2nd amendment is like buying a gun so you can use that gun to protect that gun. The NRA is an active watchdog for 2nd amendment rights, but to be in a position where you decide to use those rights, you have to know where their use is warranted, what the government is doing that effects your lives and those of people abroad in your name. which needs more awareness. if you never reach the point where you are writing a letter to your representative over a particular piece of legislation (not just gun rights) you will never reach the point where you ever use the second amendment rights.


there fbi statistics cited refer to felons shot by civilians while attempting to commit a crime. ( it includes home defense and other stuff)

You selectively edited my original post, and did not respond to several
points I made. Care to explain why ?


Noble

[chiefblackbeard]

You selectively edited my original post, and did not respond to several
points I made. Care to explain why ?


Noble

i wanted to highlight the part where I had been misquoted to clarify that out of the whole post

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[Noble Cause]

In addition, you ignored my response to your challenge:

please find me one country where per capita random people killed by lunatic attacks is more than the US. please share the numbers. i think you would know the numbers off the top of your head.

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My Response:

We compared mass shooting incidents across countries is to calculate the

Calculating it this way shows the United States in the upper half of the list of 11 countries, ranking higher than Australia, Canada, China, England, France, Germany and Mexico.

Source: Politifact.com Published Jun-18-2015

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/22/barack-obama/barack-obama-correct-mass-killings-dont-happen-oth/

Noble

[Noble Cause]

i wanted to highlight the part where I had been misquoted to clarify that out of the whole post

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I went back and read that section in your post again, I stand corrected.

In my defense, you tend you use run on sentences
that make it hard to read your longer posts.

Still, I would like a response regarding my other points in my post.


Noble

[Sigbird]

you are right about the motor vehicle and most people will admit that cars cause deaths but we are willing to risk losing as many people to motorvehicle accidents because of the value they provides to our lives, and the lives they sometimes save. my point is we must agree that guns result in the death of some people every year that wouldn't have died if the access to guns was more restricted but we are willing to risk those many lives for the value they provide us and the people they sometimes save.
also you have a test that you must pass and have a certain level of physical and mental fitness before you can drive a car. something similar must apply to guns.

Sent from my Grand S Lite using Tapatalk

That's why you and the rest of the anti gunners will never get it. Restrictions will never work if I can drive to any ghetto in America and by a gun within an hour, if I wanted to commit a massacre. Do you have any idea how many ghost guns come in from Mexico every week with there serial number scratched out? The media never mentions this. Banning and restricting isn't the answer and it will never be. You must be glued to the tv when the President and Hillary speak, because you are brain washed like the rest of the fools.