Defending Property During a Riot?

[mdib870]

if they say they're going to light ur house on fire say with a Molotov and ur in the house does this constitute deadly force?

[Bullets&Whitewalls]

Officer, I only shot the man about to light the Molotov Cocktail. Someone in the mob picked it up and started the fire down the block.

We could play out a thousand plus scenarios where it could be a good shoot. But the op specifically stated being robbed only. Personal property. Throwing a deadly weapon at you such as that would definitely be a long case in the courts I would assume. Especially in California. Now don't get me wrong, I'm on the right side of the fence. I do not agree with our great states logic of law.

I can hear the prosecuter now, he could have ran to safety because he was in the building and out the back bla bla bla...... Scenarios. Too many of them. Until one of us truly facing it one will never know. But hey we can surf and...........

[Bullets&Whitewalls]

if they say they're going to light ur house on fire say with a Molotov and ur in the house does this constitute deadly force?

From the outside? Or the inside? Great question. I'm sure all of here would agree that even from the outside it is a reasonable fear. But the prosecutors .......

[Kolo589]

With all of these riots going on, it has me thinking about what would I do if there was a riot in my neighborhood. Then it had me wondering what can I do during a riot?

I saw mentioned in one story a shopkeeper standing in front of his store in Baltimore with a shotgun. I know during the LA riots, some Korean shopkeepers protected their stores with rifles on the rooftops.

As far as I know, there are no exceptions to the open carry laws even during a riot. Is this a case where law enforcement will understand and not charge you? Or should you expect to be prosecuted afterwards?

For the sake of argument, lets say someone is brazen enough to try to break your windows and steal your things right in front of you as you are holding a shotgun. What do you do then? Would it matter if you are in front of your house or your business?

https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs/calcrim/500/509.html

509. Justifiable Homicide: Non-Peace Officer Preserving the Peace

The defendant is not guilty of (murder/ [or] manslaughter/ attempted murder/ [or] attempted voluntary manslaughter) if (he/ she) (killed/attempted to kill) someone while preserving the peace. Such (a/an) [attempted] killing is justified, and therefore not unlawful, if:

1. The defendant committed the [attempted] killing while lawfully (suppressing a riot/keeping and preserving the peace);

2. The defendant had probable cause to believe that <insert name of decedent> posed a threat of serious physical harm, either to the defendant or someone else;

AND

3. The [attempted] killing was necessary to lawfully (suppress a riot/keep and preserve the peace).

A person has probable cause to believe that someone poses a threat of serious physical harm when facts known to the person would persuade someone of reasonable caution that the other person is going to cause serious physical harm to another.

[A riot occurs when two or more people, acting together and without legal authority, disturb the public peace by use of force or violence or by threat to use force or violence with the immediate ability to carry out those threats.]

[A disturbance of the public peace may happen in any place of confinement. <insert name of detention facility> is a place of confinement.]

The People have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the [attempted] killing was not justified. If the People have not met this burden, you must find the defendant not guilty of [attempted] (murder/ [or] manslaughter).

197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
<snip>
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.

PENAL CODE
SECTION 692-694

692. Lawful resistance to the commission of a public offense may be
made:
1. By the party about to be injured;
2. By other parties.

693. Resistance sufficient to prevent the offense may be made by
the party about to be injured:
1. To prevent an offense against his person, or his family, or
some member thereof.
2. To prevent an illegal attempt by force to take or injure
property in his lawful possession.

694. Any other person, in aid or defense of the person about to be
injured, may make resistance sufficient to prevent the offense.

Typical Disclaimer: IANAL, YMMV, Don't try this at home, Don't drink and drive, If you have an erection for more than 4 hours seek medical help.

[SB1964]

I'm not gonna tell you what to do or not. Circumstances will dictate exactly what I do during a riot. I'm not quite foolish enough to run outside with a gun in hand, as I've heard others say before. You wanna come in, or break a few gates/chains at my dads & keep coming? Let's just say we have plenty of heavy equip & know how to use it. I'd rather defend my property & life, if it came down to it, than worry about what the F some libtard prosecutors gonna do. You can't think about this stuff backwards...

[Bullets&Whitewalls]

I'm not gonna tell you what to do or not. Circumstances will dictate exactly what I do during a riot. I'm not quite foolish enough to run outside with a gun in hand, as I've heard others say before. You wanna come in, or break a few gates/chains at my dads & keep coming? Let's just say we have plenty of heavy equip & know how to use it. I'd rather defend my property & life, if it came down to it, than worry about what the F some libtard prosecutors gonna do. You can't think about this stuff backwards...

You know the saying to catch a thief you must think like one? I believe this whole heartedly and feel it applies to this as well. It sucks dont it. We gotta think backwards to protect US from the stupid logic of our leaders here.

[GW]

If you don't want to shoot the SOB then club him with your gun. Hit him with pepper spray. Kick him in the nuts.
Why is it that shooting is the only option?

[Bullets&Whitewalls]

[QUOTE=Kolo589;16230883]https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs...m/500/509.html


Awesome stuff there. I interpret the majority of it as protection of you/family others (peace) but not property. Although there was one up at the top that might sway a bit that way........

[Bullets&Whitewalls]

If you don't want to shoot the SOB then club him with your gun. Hit him with pepper spray. Kick him in the nuts.
Why is it that shooting is the only option?

True there are other options I agree, but if the guns already out and your choice is to beat someone with it.........

[Nacho_Eater]

my coworker got "arrested" during the last LA riot

He and a friend were on the roof at his friends parents store in a small corner mall. 5 or 6 stores..

They had lawn chairs on the roof
They blocked the two driveways

A car drove around and guys were hanging out the windows yelling and shooting in the air

the car came back, ran over the barricades in the driveway...

Coworker fired on the left side of the car, his friend fired on the right side of the car...

3 dead - 1 quadriplegic


They were taken to the police department, statements given, handcuffed to a bench for 5 hours and released to walk home...

No charges were filed... no firearms were returned....

The survivor (quadriplegic) claimed they were protecting the neighborhood from criminals and thought the two guys on the roof (my coworker)were bad guys.

Everyone involved were Koreans.... Sad times

WTF?

That was Darwin at work there! Geez.

[funk_drum]

Not supposed to protect property with your gun, but if someone breaks into your house or business you would have to assume they are there to do you harm. If you have a locked door that means they are not welcome and anyone breaking in must be there to hurt you or your friends or family, right?

[morthrane]

If you don't want to shoot the SOB then club him with your gun. Hit him with pepper spray. Kick him in the nuts.
Why is it that shooting is the only option?

If you're close enough to do unto them in that manner, they can do the same to you. Even if you do open fire on a mob, you're still outnumbered and only hoping that they'll get scared and run.

Basically, if you can do that, you didn't need the gun in the first place. Because you've got enough other people covering your back.

[APV]

this question puzzles me too. OP is talking about riots. If the mob goes wild and the crowd is big probably the only way to stop them is to start taking attackers down with firearms with a choice either to be dead if you do not shoot or get arrested later if you shoot.
I recall a news report after New Orleans events when 5 or 6 off duty cops were charged later for shooting at the crowd of looters when they tried to stop ongoing robbery. Speaking of the law a possible charge for the same case may vary from nothing to several good years and it all depends on a judge, prosecutor and depth of your pockets to cover lawyers expenses. Speaking of a mob attack scenario if you decide to shoot then most probably later all survived attackers will claim to happen innocent bystanders. I would say it is quite a dilemma.

[Kolo589]

[QUOTE=Bullets&Whitewalls;16231000]

https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs...m/500/509.html


Awesome stuff there. I interpret the majority of it as protection of you/family others (peace) but not property. Although there was one up at the top that might sway a bit that way........

Maybe I snipped too much out of PC 197. Here's the whole thing:

197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.

PC 197.2 covers defense of property if the person intends to commit a felony. Arson is a felony. If you're inside the structure and people "manifestly [intend] and [endeavor], in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation" would a reasonable person not think they intended violence on anyone inside?

It all boils down to that old aphorism: It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[Steponmytoes]

WE ARE NOT IN TEXAS. That said... God bless America. Long live the Republic.