Our "great testing" is completely stupid

[duenor]

Some days I wonder how you can be so disingenuous or outright dishonest about things you discuss.

What disingenuity or dishonesty? Give me a break, you're cherry picking the outlier cases where TB case management was poor and then making a sweeping generalization for the entire state of TB in CA. Clearly DACA hasn't let TB swarm all over CA, as evidenced by the lack of any TB outbreak. I don't even know where you get the idea that DACA brings in TB from Mexico. You couldn't even apply for DACA unless you'd already lived in the US for at least 5 years. https://www.uscis.gov/archive/consid...aca#guidelines

You may request DACA if you:

1. Were under the age of 31 as of June 15, 2012;
2. Came to the United States before reaching your 16th birthday;
3. Have continuously resided in the United States since June 15, 2007, up to the present time;
4. Were physically present in the United States on June 15, 2012, and at the time of making your request for consideration of deferred action with USCIS;
5. Had no lawful status on June 15, 2012;
6. Are currently in school, have graduated or obtained a certificate of completion from high school, have obtained a general education development (GED) certificate, or are an honorably discharged veteran of the Coast Guard or Armed Forces of the United States; and
7. Have not been convicted of a felony, significant misdemeanor,or three or more other misdemeanors, and do not otherwise pose a threat to national security or public safety.

[duenor]

Planning and pre-positioning of assets to be successful in halting this disease would have been extensively derided due to their costs. Having a published, government-sanctioned plan to fully restrict citizen movement and direct the usage of masks and social distancing would have been the subject of much scorn on this, and other, media channels.

Assets like a national stock pile of PPE, for example? The one estimated to be worth about $57 billion in 2016? Rick Bright had a few things to say about that.

Saying that the american people aren't capable of supporting good leadership decisions is a poor excuse for incompetence. It is the job of leadership to convince the people that these are good decisions, and to make them even in the face of protest. Instead, we have leadership that encourages the idea that everyone in the government except the POTUS is lying, that nothing can be trusted, and a whole litany of misinformation or outright lies.

We've spent trillions of dollars. The bottom line is that nations with far fewer resources and advantages are doing far better than we are because their leadership is far more competent than ours.

[sd_shooter]

Assets like a national stock pile of PPE, for example? The one estimated to be worth about $57 billion in 2016? Rick Bright had a few things to say about that.

Saying that the american people aren't capable of supporting good leadership decisions is a poor excuse for incompetence. It is the job of leadership to convince the people that these are good decisions, and to make them even in the face of protest. Instead, we have leadership that encourages the idea that everyone in the government except the POTUS is lying, that nothing can be trusted, and a whole litany of misinformation or outright lies.

We've spent trillions of dollars. The bottom line is that nations with far fewer resources and advantages are doing far better than we are because their leadership is far more competent than ours.

I know you think Orange Man Bad - maybe you should blame congress once in a while. The Adminstrative branch is facing a liberal house that opposes everything he does and keeps heaping pork onto every bailout plan.

[Den60]

45% of fatalities means that the remaining 55% is everybody else. The age graphs show that those from 40-60 (IIRC) make up the bulk of those deaths.

Further, I would say that that the proper course of leadership would not be to say, "well our SNFs and LTCFs are bad at their job, so allow them to refuse re-entry and then force family members to take sick gramps home". I would say that the proper course of action would be to enforce and ensure that those facilities are up to par.
Certainly, NY failed to do this last part, although from what I have seen of the system it's not built with maintaining high standards of care as a priority. Then again, in Feburary many people were still thinking that this is just the flu - and the shortage of PPE was also at its worst at that time.

Nearly 50% of fatalities are attributed to 0.45% of the population. I am not sure why you are using 45% and 55%. I am pointing out that a very small portion of the US population is responsible for nearly half of all COVID deaths. There are, were, roughly 1.5M people living in nursing homes pre-pandemic. That is just .45% of the official US population of ~ 330M (I am not adding the 12-20M illegals to that number).

Also, 80% of COVID fatalities are in the age group > 65 and, typically, with an underlying medical condition so you recall incorrectly when you claim most of COVID deaths are in the 40-60 age group. That group would account for less that 15% and likely closer to 10% than 15%.

https://www.acsh.org/news/2020/06/23/coronavirus-covid-deaths-us-age-race-14863

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/press-release/8-in-10-people-who-have-died-of-covid-19-were-age-65-or-older-but-the-share-varies-by-state/

[SAN compnerd]

Nearly 50% of fatalities are attributed to 0.45% of the population. I am not sure why you are using 45% and 55%. I am pointing out that a very small portion of the US population is responsible for nearly half of all COVID deaths. There are, were, roughly 1.5M people living in nursing homes pre-pandemic. That is just .45% of the official US population of ~ 330M (I am not adding the 12-20M illegals to that number).

Also, 80% of COVID fatalities are in the age group > 65 and, typically, with an underlying medical condition so you recall incorrectly when you claim most of COVID deaths are in the 40-60 age group. That group would account for less that 15% and likely closer to 10% than 15%.

https://www.acsh.org/news/2020/06/23/coronavirus-covid-deaths-us-age-race-14863

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covi...ries-by-state/

So much like this California dashboard, the natoinal stats show that 85+% of the fatalities by this contagion are over 50.

Conversely the people under 17 are largely unaffected and have little to no symptoms.

Good to know the facts. Oh, keep in mind the California dashboard count is off due to the issue with lag in counting due to some data processing issue.

https://public.tableau.com/views/COVID-19CasesDashboard_15931020425010/Cases?%3Aembed=y&%3AshowVizHome=no

[therealnickb]

Blinded by the trump. No cure available.

[SAN compnerd]

Assets like a national stock pile of PPE, for example? The one estimated to be worth about $57 billion in 2016? Rick Bright had a few things to say about that.

Saying that the american people aren't capable of supporting good leadership decisions is a poor excuse for incompetence. It is the job of leadership to convince the people that these are good decisions, and to make them even in the face of protest. Instead, we have leadership that encourages the idea that everyone in the government except the POTUS is lying, that nothing can be trusted, and a whole litany of misinformation or outright lies.

We've spent trillions of dollars. The bottom line is that nations with far fewer resources and advantages are doing far better than we are because their leadership is far more competent than ours.

Rick Bright? Pretty sure we are going to hang him publicly when this is over for killing so many people by denying HCQ use.

[Den60]

Not "never needed" - they weren't utilized properly. If I recall correctly, the hospital ships were not allowed to take COVID19 patients:

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/04/05/patients-on-hospital-ship-test-positive-for-covid-19/

https://www.naval-technology.com/news/usns-mercy-departs-la-to-continue-covid-19-response-efforts/

They were deployed very late, they were told not to take COVID19 patients (until very late in their deployment), and two weeks after COVID19 outbreaks occurred on the Comfort on 4/5 the ship's mission was ended. Furthermore, the field hospitals were not the same as the actual hospitals that China built. Field hospitals is a whole bunch of cots in rows in a stadium (IIRC, the Jarvis Convention Center). You only want to use those resources if you have no other choice.

The ships were not supposed to take COVID patients, they were supposed to take other patients. However, COVID patients were, mistakenly, sent to them - both the Mercy and the Comfort. My next door neighbor served on the Mercy and she was told to expect their LA deployment to last through September. The ship returned to San Diego on May 15. None of the temporary facilities the ACE built in NYC were ever used which means, they were never needed. These facilities were built for non COVID patients in case the hospitals were overrun.

As hospitals were overrun by coronavirus patients in other parts of the world, the Army Corps of Engineers mobilized in the U.S., hiring private contractors to build emergency field hospitals around the country.

The endeavor cost more than $660 million, according to an NPR analysis of federal spending records.

But nearly four months into the pandemic, most of these facilities haven't treated a single patient.

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/07/851712311/u-s-field-hospitals-stand-down-most-without-treating-any-covid-19-patients

And the army doesn't use "cots" in their field hospitals anymore, this isn't MASH:

[SAN compnerd]

What disingenuity or dishonesty? Give me a break, you're cherry picking the outlier cases where TB case management was poor and then making a sweeping generalization for the entire state of TB in CA. Clearly DACA hasn't let TB swarm all over CA, as evidenced by the lack of any TB outbreak. I don't even know where you get the idea that DACA brings in TB from Mexico. You couldn't even apply for DACA unless you'd already lived in the US for at least 5 years. https://www.uscis.gov/archive/consid...aca#guidelines

Mmhmm.

[duenor]

I know you think Orange Man Bad - maybe you should blame congress once in a while. The Adminstrative branch is facing a liberal house that opposes everything he does and keeps heaping pork onto every bailout plan.

I haven't left Democrats out either. Pelosi and Schumer are just as stupid and seizing on stupid reasons to do political grandstanding. They are also incapable of making clear and consistent understanding to the American people. the GOP could not have become the strange creature it is today if not for the intractably polar positions of the DNCs entrenched hierarchy.
Where's Bidens voice regarding the pandemic? Pelosi? Schumer? Are they incapable of press releases or editorials? Right now it seems like they are only interested in playing it safe. That's because there is a competent leadership vacuum - one that is learning and reading and interacting with experts - on all sides of the aisle.
But they aren't in power. They've got one powerful house of the legislative branch. It's substantial power over the purse, but the leadership decisions are not being made by them.

[duenor]

Also, 80% of COVID fatalities are in the age group > 65 and, typically, with an underlying medical condition so you recall incorrectly when you claim most of COVID deaths are in the 40-60 age group. That group would account for less that 15% and likely closer to 10% than 15%.

I misread your 50% /.45 and used that number. The CDC data is pretty badly lagged now since they've routed all data to HHS first (and the HHS website is total garbage). Using the last data point for which there appears to be at least somewhat complete data, on 7.25, we have about 25% 64 & under, 25% 65-74, 25% 74-85, 25% 85+. This is consistent with the CA dashboard as SAN posted. So, yes, agreed, 50% of deaths are 75+. Age 0 to 74 makes up about the other 50%, with most of that in the 35-74 age range. All of this is to say that the risk to families who are still working, still taking care of kids, still vital to society and community is not negligible. Allowing SNFs/LTCFs to refuse reentry by the sick would've directly introduced active cases into this population instead of keep it contained within those facilities.

It seems that you are adamant that Cuomo's ordering of SNFs/LTCFs to accept COVID19 patients was a poor one. I agree that it resulted in large numbers of deaths.
However, my position that it was the correct decision, and remains the correct decision given that we don't have better choices. The best one would've been to send those sick patients to quarantine facilities (like the ones China built), or at least the improvised field hospitals like at Jarvis. I'll stop going on about this now because you and I have different viewpoints, and I can see where your perspective comes from though I disagree with it.

[duenor]

None of the temporary facilities the ACE built in NYC were ever used which means, they were never needed. These facilities were built for non COVID patients in case the hospitals were overrun.

They weren't used much because the need was for COVID19 care, not non-covid19 overflow. So you had very high numbers of COVID19 patients, and none of them could be sent to these other facilities because they aren't allowed / aren't capable. I said that we spent trillions and still don't have quarantine facilities. You had said that we had them, but never used them.

Guess what happens to covid19 patients, today? Yep, they get sent back to SNFs/LTCFs - because there's no other place for them. I'm very well acquainted with this, because this is what we had to do with our family member.

And the army doesn't use "cots" in their field hospitals anymore, this isn't MASH:

That is a field hospital, in spite of how much was spent. Those are folding beds with an IV stand. Not that much different from your rows of MASH cots under a big tent. Compare that to the picture below of a room in one of China's quarantine hospitals. I'd still take that field hospital over the current model of sending sick grandma back to the SNF, though. But, 8 months in, that is the only option available to families (other than taking grandma home, potentially infecting everyone in the home).

[GlockN'Roll]

Good luck with that. You have kids? Married? Better take those into consideration too.

Sending sick elderly back to SNFs or LTCFs is the right call to make. Call it BS if you want,
it's easy to talk about things when you don't have to back up your arguments with solid evidence or aren't actually having to deal with the situation.

Kind of like those guys who talk about how they would do this or do that in a given situation.

That pretty much describes all of your posts on the topic...

[duenor]

That pretty much describes all of your posts on the topic...

Links are in each of the posts. I've described my own experiences with the disease as well. If you see something without evidence, feel free to call me on it.

[Den60]

They weren't used much because the need was for COVID19 care, not non-covid19 overflow. So you had very high numbers of COVID19 patients, and none of them could be sent to these other facilities because they aren't allowed / aren't capable. I said that we spent trillions and still don't have quarantine facilities. You had said that we had them, but never used them.

Guess what happens to covid19 patients, today? Yep, they get sent back to SNFs/LTCFs - because there's no other place for them. I'm very well acquainted with this, because this is what we had to do with our family member.


That is a field hospital, in spite of how much was spent. Those are folding beds with an IV stand. Not that much different from your rows of MASH cots under a big tent. Compare that to the picture below of a room in one of China's quarantine hospitals. I'd still take that field hospital over the current model of sending sick grandma back to the SNF, though. But, 8 months in, that is the only option available to families (other than taking grandma home, potentially infecting everyone in the home).

Here is the field hospital at Javits Convention Center:



I am sure that medical care is much better in China and their facilities make ours look like a third world sh**house but we make do. I mean, I'm sure the picture you posted is the worst a Chinese patient will find, right?

China has done so much better with the virus as well, still hasn't surpassed 85,000 cases despite reaching 84K monts ago. Oh, and still haven't had more than 4,700 deaths despite being well over 4,600 months ago. I mean, why would they lie about something as serious as this?

As I understand it, the field hospitals built here in the US were ordered by individual governors to be used as they saw fit. Some saw coronavirus patients some not. All were underused. The feds just built them for them at a cost of over $660M according to NPR. Cuomo and other governors could have sent infected, but not critical, patients there rather than to nursing homes and I expect the reason they didn't was to keep the cost of caring for them on the privately owned nursing homes, rather than the state run field hospitals.