Randomized Controlled Study shows that HCQ not a preventive

[Scota4570]

It is such a weird concept, people who have no medical training insisting they know what your doctor should be allowed to prescribe. They don't want access anything that might be helpful. So they fabricate stories about it causing heart problems.

We know with 100% certainty that it is not harmful when used appropriately. It appears to be useful in blunting the immune system cascade that actually kills the patients, when used before you are on deaths door. It is not a cure but a help to survive.


It would be analogous to Tylenol for fever. Tylenol will destroy your liver. But taken responsibly for short periods of time it is a valuable drug. So if we found Tylenol could be saving some lives they would ban it to deliberately cause more deaths.

It seems likely that the far left chaos crowd is behind this load of BS.

[smashycrashy]

We know with 100% certainty that it is not harmful when used appropriately. It appears to be useful in blunting the immune system cascade that actually kills the patients, when used before you are on deaths door. It is not a cure but a help to survive.

So you have a theory there but has yet to be proven. We have yet to see anything resembling a "good" study showing efficacy on COVID-19.

It is widely available, if had some sort of curative powers it should really shine like a beacon as opposed to sifting through needles in a haystack while people desperately search for some inkling of a clue that it helps in some way.

[balgor]

It is such a weird concept, people who have no medical training insisting they know what your doctor should be allowed to prescribe. They don't want access anything that might be helpful. So they fabricate stories about it causing heart problems.

We know with 100% certainty that it is not harmful when used appropriately. It appears to be useful in blunting the immune system cascade that actually kills the patients, when used before you are on deaths door. It is not a cure but a help to survive.


It would be analogous to Tylenol for fever. Tylenol will destroy your liver. But taken responsibly for short periods of time it is a valuable drug. So if we found Tylenol could be saving some lives they would ban it to deliberately cause more deaths.

It seems likely that the far left chaos crowd is behind this load of BS.

Actually, it has well known but rare negative side effect on heart that can be mitigated by close supervision by a doctor. However, if a drug has zero positive effect on a condition and has rare but known negative side effect, you don't use that drug, since it's all negatives and no positives. The reason they accept this negative side effect for Lupus and Malaria is the HCQ is highly effective at treating those conditions, so the positive benefits heavily outweigh the negative side effects.

[Creampuff]

We know with 100% certainty that it is not harmful when used appropriately. It appears to be useful in blunting the immune system cascade that actually kills the patients, when used before you are on deaths door. It is not a cure but a help to survive.

Nothing is 100%.
Cut and paste from a reference we often use at work:

In case you are wondering, a correct QT >500 is bad news..

Having said that everything has its risk vs benefits. It is being used, but it's use in critical care will likely not be beneficial. Patients with low risk towards prolong QT in early stage, is still up in the air. But to say 100% certainty it is safe when used appropriately is a promise no provider will ever say to their patient.

Adult Clinical Trials
1) Systemic lupus erythematous (unspecified route): In a descriptive-analytical study (N=150), hydroxychloroquine treatment was significantly associated with a prolonged QTc with 83% (n=39) experiencing QTc prolongation and 58.3% (n=60) with a normal QTc on ECG evaluation in patients with systemic lupus erythematous. The presence of anti-Ro/SSA antibodies were also significantly associated with a prolonged QTc with 57% (n=27) experiencing QTc prolongation and 27% (n=28) with a normal QTc. There was no significant association found in other anti-lupus drugs used in the studied patients [35].
2) COVID-19 (unspecified route): In patients with COVID-19 (N=40) who were treated with hydroxychloroquine with (n=18) or without azithromycin (n=22), 93% had an increase in QTc. A QTc increase of greater than 60 msec was observed in 36% of patients and a QTc of 500 msec or greater was seen in 18% of patients after a duration of antiviral treatment of 2 to 5 days. Development of an increase in QTc of 500 msec or greater occurred in 33% treated with the addition of azithromycin vs 5% of those treated with hydroxychloroquine alone. No ventricular arrhythmias were reported. Patients were treated with hydroxychloroquine 200 mg twice daily for 10 days with or without azithromycin 250 mg daily for 5 days. All patients were in the ICU and invasive mechanical ventilation was required in 75% of patients, vasoactive drugs in 63%, and 50% were receiving other treatments that could cause QT prolongation. Antiviral treatment was discontinued in 17.5% of patients following ECG changes and in 25% for acute renal failure [36].
3) COVID-19 (unspecified route): In a cohort study of patients hospitalized with pneumonia associated with COVID-19 (N=90), those treated with hydroxychloroquine with azithromycin had a significantly greater median change in QT interval compared with those treated with hydroxychloroquine alone (23 msec vs 5.5 msec, respectively). A prolonged QTc of 500 msec or greater was reported in 19% of patients that were treated with hydroxychloroquine alone and 3% had a change in QTc of 60 msec or greater. A prolonged QTc of 500 msec or greater was reported in 21% of patients treated with hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin and 13% had a change in QTc of 60 msec or greater. The likelihood of prolonged QTc was greater in those who received concomitant loop diuretics (adjusted OR, 3.38; 95% CI, 1.03 to 11.08) or had a baseline QTc of 450 msec or greater (adjusted OR, 7.11; 95% CI, 1.75 to 28.87). Patients were treated with hydroxychloroquine 400 mg twice daily on day 1, then 400 mg daily on days 2 through 5 with or without azithromycin. Most patients had 1 or more cardiovascular comorbidities, were taking 2 or more QTc-prolonging medications, and 51% were considered high-risk with a baseline cumulative Tisdale score of 11 or greater [37].
e) COVID-19 Use
1) QT interval prolongation has been reported, including some cases leading to death, with hospital and outpatient use of hydroxychloroquine for treatment or prevention of COVID-19[1].

[balgor]

Nothing is 100%.
Cut and paste from a reference we often use at work:

In case you are wondering, a correct QT >500 is bad news..

Having said that everything has its risk vs benefits. It is being used, but it's use in critical care will likely not be beneficial. Patients with low risk towards prolong QT in early stage, is still up in the air. But to say 100% certainty it is safe when used appropriately is a promise no provider will ever say to their patient.

The QT prolongation>500 side effect is more common than I thought. Thanks for the info.

[Creampuff]

The QT prolongation>500 side effect is more common than I thought. Thanks for the info.

Sorry I should have captioned my cut and paste, because those studies are usually a combination of azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine. With azithromymcin being a very well know QT prolongation medication. I was just trying to make a point of 100% certainty is a promise one would never ever make to a patient.

[theLBC]

You must be new here, Have you met sd_shooter & theLBC (among others).. they personify the quality you are looking for:

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1615935&highlight=prophylactic

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=24199288&postcount=13

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=24152024&postcount=1

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=24228504&postcount=1

It has shown efficacy as neither.

how about quoting me, since you are accusing me directly?

what i do recall saying or suggesting is that my research leads me to believe that HCQ is a transport agent for getting zinc into the cells where it can help to slow replication of the virus, and that in the absence of adequate levels of zinc, it is probably ineffective.

the people getting sickest have other illnesses that are associated with low zinc levels (cancer, diabetes, sickle cell, liver disease..).
additionally, "anecdotal" reports from doctors that have treated dozens to thousands of patients seem to back up these suppositions.

HCQ cannot "prevent" you from getting covid, because you have to have the virus in your system already for the benefits i have described to do anything.
what it might be able to do is slow down replication of the virus so your body has time to respond before it is overwhelemed.

so far i have yet to see a valid study saying the combination of HCQ+Z-pak+Zinc is ineffective. imo, anything but these 3 things in the proper amounts is not a real study and like the VA and Lancet study (which is under attack), seem to be designed to fail.

[Creampuff]

The QT prolongation>500 side effect is more common than I thought. Thanks for the info.

Sorry I should have captioned my cut and paste, because those studies are usually a combination of azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine. With azithromymcin being a very well know QT prolongation medication. I was just trying to make a point of 100% certainty is a promise one would never ever make to a patient.

Helps if I read my own cut and paste.

Wow, I didn't realize the QT >500 was that high from hydroxychloroquine alone either.

A prolonged QTc of 500 msec or greater was reported in 19% of patients that were treated with hydroxychloroquine alone and 3% had a change in QTc of 60 msec or greater.

and....here's why:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2765633

These were critical care patients, so with electrolyte imbalances and impaired renal function, no surprise they are more prone to prolonged QT.

[theLBC]

AAPS Sues the FDA to End Its Arbitrary Restrictions on Hydroxychloroquine

https://aapsonline.org/hcqsuit/

“There is no legal or factual basis for the FDA to limit use of HCQ,” states AAPS General Counsel Andrew Schlafly. “The FDA’s restrictions on HCQ for Americans are completely indefensible in court.”

[smashycrashy]

how about quoting me, since you are accusing me directly?

what i do recall saying or suggesting is that my research leads me to believe that HCQ is a transport agent for getting zinc into the cells where it can help to slow replication of the virus, and that in the absence of adequate levels of zinc, it is probably ineffective.

the people getting sickest have other illnesses that are associated with low zinc levels (cancer, diabetes, sickle cell, liver disease..).
additionally, "anecdotal" reports from doctors that have treated dozens to thousands of patients seem to back up these suppositions.

HCQ cannot "prevent" you from getting covid, because you have to have the virus in your system already for the benefits i have described to do anything.
what it might be able to do is slow down replication of the virus so your body has time to respond before it is overwhelemed.

so far i have yet to see a valid study saying the combination of HCQ+Z-pak+Zinc is ineffective. imo, anything but these 3 things in the proper amounts is not a real study and like the VA and Lancet study (which is under attack), seem to be designed to fail.

[Scota4570]

Helps if I read my own cut and paste.

Wow, I didn't realize the QT >500 was that high from hydroxychloroquine alone either.

and....here's why:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2765633

These were critical care patients, so with electrolyte imbalances and impaired renal function, no surprise they are more prone to prolonged QT.

HCQ has been used for decades very safely. Using any drug used on critically ill people requires more monitoring. To use my analogy, you would not use Tylenol on a person dying of liver cirrhosis and then declare Tylenol unsafe because it went badly. And then try to ban Tylenol from the market. The HCQ banners seem to be using cherry picked data deliberately to misrepresent the safety of the drug.

Bottom line, my doctor and I know what is best for me, not some bureaucrat with a political ax to grind.

[HibikiR]

Some Cardiac medications can cause QT elongation and we still use them.

[Creampuff]

HCQ has been used for decades very safely. Using any drug used on critically ill people requires more monitoring. To use my analogy, you would not use Tylenol on a person dying of liver cirrhosis and then declare Tylenol unsafe because it went badly. And then try to ban Tylenol from the market. The HCQ banners seem to be using cherry picked data deliberately to misrepresent the safety of the drug.

Bottom line, my doctor and I know what is best for me, not some bureaucrat with a political ax to grind.

My quote above I was responding to balgor's response to the high incidence of QTc >500, of which I was also surprised.

But with regards to hydroxychloroquine being used safely through the years for SLE, yes it has. I however had to respond to your "We know with 100% certainty that it is not harmful when used appropriately" No provider ever makes that promise. Everything has its risk vs benefits even with a healthy patient taking tylenol.

From hydroxychloroquine's package insert (and yes I know all package inserts have lawyer-ese)

Scota, I'm actually not opposed to hydroxychloroquine being tried in early stage. Based on this most recent study, prophylaxis might not be beneficial. That is respect to a healthy young sample group. I really doubt it will work late stage. Early stage, let's see. I hope it does work. Results will be coming out soon I hope.

Blood and lymphatic s ys tem dis orders : Bone marrow failure, anemia, aplastic anemia,
agranulocytosis, leukopenia, and thrombocytopenia. Hemolysis reported in individuals with glucose-6-
phosphate dehydrogenase (G-6-PD) deficiency.
Cardiac dis orders : Cardiomyopathy which may result in cardiac failure and in some cases a fatal
outcome (see WARNINGS and OVERDOSAGE). Hydroxychloroquine sulfate prolongs the QT
interval. Ventricular arrhythmias and torsade de pointes have been reported in patients taking
hydroxychloroquine sulfate (see OVERDOSAGE and DRUG INTERACTIONS).
Ear and labyrinth dis orders : Vertigo, tinnitus, nystagmus, nerve deafness, deafness.
Eye dis orders : Irreversible retinopathy with retinal pigmentation changes (bull’s eye appearance),
visual field defects (paracentral scotomas) and visual disturbances (visual acuity), maculopathies
(macular degeneration), decreased dark adaptation, color vision abnormalities, corneal changes (edema
and opacities) including corneal deposition of drug with or without accompanying symptoms (halo
around lights, photophobia, blurred vision).
Gas trointes tinal dis orders : Nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and abdominal pain.
General dis orders and adminis tration s ite conditions : Fatigue.
Hepatobiliary dis orders : Liver function tests abnormal, hepatic failure acute.
Immune s ys tem dis orders : Urticaria, angioedema, bronchospasm
Metabolis m and nutrition dis orders : Decreased appetite, hypoglycemia, porphyria, weight
decreased.
Mus culos keletal and connective tis s ue dis orders : Sensorimotor disorder, skeletal muscle myopathy
or neuromyopathy leading to progressive weakness and atrophy of proximal muscle groups, depression
of tendon reflexes and abnormal nerve conduction.
Nervous s ys tem dis orders : Headache, dizziness, seizure, ataxia and extrapyramidal disorders such as
dystonia, dyskinesia, and tremor have been reported with this class of drugs.
Ps ychiatric dis orders : Affect/emotional lability, nervousness, irritability, nightmares, psychosis,
suicidal behavior.
Skin and s ubcutaneous tis s ue dis orders : Rash, pruritus, pigmentation disorders in skin and mucous
membranes, hair color changes, alopecia. Dermatitis bullous eruptions including erythema multiforme,
Stevens-Johnson syndrome, and toxic epidermal necrolysis, drug reaction with eosinophilia and
systemic symptoms (DRESS syndrome), photosensitivity, dermatitis exfoliative, acute generalized
exanthematous pustulosis (AGEP). AGEP has to be distinguished from psoriasis, although
hydroxychloroquine sulfate may precipitate attacks of psoriasis. It may be associated with pyrexia and
hyperleukocytosis

[theLBC]

That was not my claim, that was the title in the link i was sharing.

https://onenewsnow.com/perspectives/bryan-fischer/2020/04/27/fauci-knew-about-hcq-in-2005-nobody-needed-to-die

[smashycrashy]

That was not my claim, that was the title in the link i was sharing.

https://onenewsnow.com/perspectives/...-needed-to-die

And it is just junk like all the stuff you post.