870 Express super mag 12g

[DArBad]

I thought the 590 had all the different sights and shell carrier?Hell I don't know, I bought a 500 a few years ago and the thing died on me first trip out.Sent it back and got a refund.I figure the 590 is closer to the 870 so I guess that's why im looking for one.

the 590A1 is a " heavier duty " shotgun........" heavy walled " barrel, metal trigger group, and safety tang. The Mossberg 590 does not have the heavy-walled barrel, only the 590A1 line.

FUNCTIONALLY, everything is equal, just that the 590A1, accordingly, can take more beating and abuse, no doubt the METAL TRIGGER GROUP, ETC are contributing factors to this durability. This was already expounded Ad nauseum on many gun rags back in the day. The NYPD bought several thousands of the 590A1 around 2008 and that is after rigorously testing. Additionally, the police of several countries (Malaysia, Philippines, some South American countries, several European countries, etc.) are also using the Mossberg 590A1.

I bought the Mossberg 590A1 US Service Model. That sucker is industrial grade heavy duty. It will not compare to the beguiling beauty and refinement of say, the Remington Wingmaster. BUT, as long as we are talking of shotguns as WEAPONS, it will never take a backseat to anything, even the uber-expensive brands.

Semantics or not, its semantics when it comes to plastic/polymer argument, especially when the people arguing are in the know.

[billt]

I thought the 590 had all the different sights and shell carrier?Hell I don't know, I bought a 500 a few years ago and the thing died on me first trip out.Sent it back and got a refund.I figure the 590 is closer to the 870 so I guess that's why im looking for one.

I have and shoot both the 500 and 590 A-1. Both are good guns, but from a quality standpoint the 590 A-1 is the better gun by far. It is also over twice the price depending how you configure it. There are more varieties of 590 A-1 Models than there are different pizzas from Dominoes. The most expensive being the 590 A-1 SPX which comes equipped with the Ontario Knife Co. M-9 Bayonet which attaches to the weapon.

Mine is the 20" heavy barreled 9 shot model. It is much heavier than my 500, and as was mentioned it comes with the all metal trigger group and metal safety selector switch.

If you want to talk about really heavy duty, I just purchased a Rock Island Armory M-5 last week. This gun is built like a tank with an all steel receiver, and a 20" barrel that screws directly into the receiver. It is a copy of the old High Standard Flight King, one of the most underrated pump guns ever made. Rock Island improved the design by adding another slide bar for 2 instead of the High Standard single slide bar design.

The action on this gun is the absolute smoothest I've ever experienced. Also, much like the model 12 Winchester it does not have an interrupter, and can be slam fired by simply pumping the action while holding the trigger back. For the modest price of around $200.00 it is just about the best buy out there in the combat shotgun market today. I chose the Nickel version, but it also comes in a Parkerized finish as well. Zero plastic on this weapon anywhere except for it's Speedfeed Stock. I'm seriously thinking of getting another one in Parkerized. The gun is that good in both quality and value.

[bigbearbear]

BUT, here is the thing, IF, indeed polymer is superior, why is it then that on the MORE EXPENSIVE models, Remington/Mossberg use the METAL and not the POLYMER???

You would have to ask the manufacturer for the specifics, metal isn't always better than polymer, as shown in the video in my post where Ruger did the impact test on the trigger guard.

In some cases, and I'm guessing here because I don't manufacture or sell guns, it might be because there are many different grades of polymers and metals. So if a manufacturer started out with an inferior metal (eg. aluminum), they will replace it with a higher grade product made in polymer. And the reverse is true also, if you start out with a low grade polymer part, you'll probably get better traction on the market by pushing out a replacement upgrade using higher grade metal (eg. steel).

Not all shotgun manufacturers put a premium on the use of metal, Remington and Mossberg are just 2 manufacturers and their products are on the lower end of the scale. Benelli for example, uses polymer extensively. Their latest ETHOS for example, uses a polymer rib instead of a metal one.

[billt]

Another point you don't see being discussed is how the pin retaining holes stand up to constant removal, cleaning, and reinstallation, on all of these polymer / plastic / whatever trigger groups. They don't.

Polymer is soft. There is no known process to harden it. All removable trigger groups on today's pump and autoloading shotguns are held in place by retaining pins that go through both the receiver as well as the trigger group itself, holding it in place. Nothing but friction holds these pins in place. Polymer / plastic will deform, elongate, and even shear easily after several removal, cleanings, and reinstallations. Especially if care is not taken to make sure these components are perfectly aligned before installing the pins.

Now, if your a 3 box a year shotgun shooter this isn't going to matter. But if you shoot your shotgun a lot, like Trap, Skeet, and Sporting Clays shooters do, it can loosen the trigger group over time by constant removal and cleaning. If your gun (regardless of brand), contains a plastic trigger group, the holes can become loose after several removals of the trigger group. I've seen it happen on several guns.

This condition is much more prevalent on shotguns with polymer / plastic trigger groups, than it is on Glock's and other polymer framed pistols like H&K's. Most likely because these guns don't require removal for cleaning these components. I have Glock's with tens of thousands of rounds through them, and have never removed a pin on any of them.

Another thing is you have to be very careful of is what type of solvent you use on these polymer / plastic components, or you can easily soften and damage them. None of this is an issue with Aluminum / metal trigger groups. My Remington 1100 Trap Grade for example has literally tens of thousands of rounds through it since I purchased it new back in 1972. I can't count the amount of times I've removed the trigger group to wash it out after shooting several hundred targets in a single afternoon. The retaining pins are as tight as the day I bought it.

I've seen polymer / plastic trigger groups so loose you can feel the movement after the pins have been removed and installed several times. One guy a few years back, who shot at our gun club every Sunday with a Remington 870 Express, was having several misfires with factory loads every round. I asked to see the gun and the trigger group was so loose I could move it back and forth at least the thickness of a dime! He sent the gun in for repair, and it was returned several weeks later with............. You guessed it, a new plastic trigger group.

If you do have a gun with a plastic / polymer trigger group, try to wash it out with a solvent like clean Kerosene without removing it. Then blow it dry with compressed air if you have it available. Because over time I can all but guarantee you they will loosen up. I have never seen this occur with an Aluminum trigger group. Again, this is because of the softness of the polymer / plastic used in these components. They can carry on about how much stronger they are, but they cannot change the fact polymer is much softer, and that can and does cause problems for pin retention.

And lets at least be honest here. How many people have hit a trigger guard hard enough to break it? I've been into guns for almost 45 years and I have never so much as dented a trigger guard, let alone break one. So all of this crap about "strength" is a moot point. The softness of these components, (which is what gives them much of their shock absorbing quality), is a much bigger issue, because the very composition of these materials easily causes slop in parts that are supposed to fit tight when assembled.

[DArBad]

You would have to ask the manufacturer for the specifics, metal isn't always better than polymer, as shown in the video in my post where Ruger did the impact test on the trigger guard.

In some cases, and I'm guessing here because I don't manufacture or sell guns, it might be because there are many different grades of polymers and metals. So if a manufacturer started out with an inferior metal (eg. aluminum), they will replace it with a higher grade product made in polymer. And the reverse is true also, if you start out with a low grade polymer part, you'll probably get better traction on the market by pushing out a replacement upgrade using higher grade metal (eg. steel).

Not all shotgun manufacturers put a premium on the use of metal, Remington and Mossberg are just 2 manufacturers and their products are on the lower end of the scale. Benelli for example, uses polymer extensively. Their latest ETHOS for example, uses a polymer rib instead of a metal one.

I hear ya, "bigbear".

Polymer/plastic is not always superior to metal, and I agree with that. In IMPACT department, polymer COULD be superior, depending on the QUALITY of the polymer.

BUt " billt " is also correct that there are instances where polymer is INFERIOR to metal. He did point out above where, due do many instances of installation and removal of a polymer trigger group, pin holes elongate/enlarged and that it caused problems.

My actual experience with polymer's inferiority was with my 2nd gen. Glock 17. Back in the day, due to countless insertion/ejection of the polymer magazine, the edges of the magazine stop rapidly deteriorated in short order. SO, in that scenario, polymer is INFERIOR.

Me, I would always hold that in GENERAL firearms use, metal is indeed superior, especially if we take into account that most gun cleaners are inimical to polymer and metal is more forgiving. Where polymer is superior to metal is in weight and cost factor.

I don't have quarrel with or animosity on anyone who would take the other side of this argument. As I said, before, I am a big fan of BOTH Mossberg and Remington's. If a particular manufacturer is not using the MATERIAL I like, I just don't buy said particular model/brand.

I am out of this thread.

[aippi]

Darbad - Strange comment about trigger pins enlarging holes in Polymer trigger pate assemblies and not sure which guns this refers to. That comment has nothing to do with the Remington Shotgun which is the topic of the OP.

In the Remington shotgun a trigger plate pin bushing is in place which is metal. It does not come out in routine maintenance and would only be removed in the rare case the trigger plate assembly is being rebuilt. The trigger pin goes through that bushing and is held in by a D-clip type detent spring. So at no time does the trigger pin come in contact with the housing whether polymer or aluminum. The purpose of that bushing is to hold other parts in and it is hollow to also serve as the trigger pin bushing. So, any reference to such an issue does not concern a Remington Shotgun in any way.

Which shotguns do the trigger pins wear out the holes of the trigger plate assembly or receiver? Since guys are commenting on such matters I assume they have knowledge of which guns these are. I am always trying to learn more about shotguns so the information would be helpful.

[DArBad]

[QUOTE=aippi;14993581]Darbad - Strange comment about trigger pins enlarging holes in Polymer trigger pate assemblies and not sure which guns this refers to. That comment has nothing to do with the Remington Shotgun which is the topic of the OP.

I was addressing the 2nd and 3rd paragraph of " billts " post 34 above.

Let me restate again: I LIKE REMINGTON SHOTGUNS, regardless of the plastic trigger group.

The OP already stated at the beginning that he does not like Remington's due to the same reason.

[aippi]

I'm sorry, I thought you said you agreed with this statement:

...'due do many instances of installation and removal of a polymer trigger group, pin holes elongate/enlarged and that it caused problems."

And since I am unaware of any shotguns that have trigger pins making contact with the polymer housing I was simply wondering which models had the many instances that caused the problem.

I'm just trying to learn more about different shotguns.

[ysimon532]

I never said they were "junk". I have no need to "get over" anything. I can accept the FACT metal is stronger than plastic. The military agrees with that FACT. The only "getting over" that seems to be in order here is your persistent ignorance of what everyone else accepts as common knowledge.

Lol dude but.. it may happen... and very obviously may have already happened here (I love my two 870s tac and feild and they got the plastic trigger housings), that a polymer introduced to the market may be better (stronger or more durable) than the metal housings on some current and the older 870s...when that happens (again very well may have happened here) your METAL arguement wont apply anymore...just sayin.its not just impossible that some PLASTIC or polymer is stronger or more durable than some METAL goodday all.

[powderedtoastman]

My God man, this thread died over two months ago! Now it's zombified!