870 Express super mag 12g

[aippi]

Billt. Your may simply be misunderstanding the issue. The trigger plate assemblies on certain 870 models and on the 590 are cast aluminum. Polymer is stronger, no question about this.

Now, you are using the word metal and you may think those assemblies are steel. If they were, then of course they would be stronger. But they are not steel. Knowing the basics of a topic would go a long way in whether a post contributes to the subject.

[powderedtoastman]

I honestly do not know of the military's requirements for the Mossberg 590 shotguns, let alone their requirements of what the trigger groups should be. However, I routinely carried a Remington 870 in the Coast Guard that had a "plastic" trigger group. This newer 870 we switched to replaced 870's from the 50's and 60's that had metal trigger assemblies. In a salt water environment, banging around in boarding boats, I'm pretty sure they took the "plastic" trigger assemblies into account. All the shotguns I carried held up to range qual and duty use just fine. Discounting a gun because you think one part is "plastic"(when it really isn't plastic) is just ridiculous IMO.

[billt]

You are completely forgetting the main, and most important reason manufacturers use plastic.....It is cheap. It appears cheap, is cheap, and makes a gun look cheap. That is why you don't find it on higher grade weapons. You're trying to pass off cheap as "better". Yes, polymer, plastic, etc. has certain advantages, it's biggest one is it is cheaper for the manufacturers to produce. THAT is why you find plastic trigger groups on the CHEAPER Express grades of the Remington 870, and Mossberg 500 models, and not on the more expensive, upgraded models like the Remington Wingmaster, Police, and 590 A-1 Mossberg models.....Not because it's "better", but rather CHEAPER. That is the true reality of this conversation, not the wishful thinking you are implying.

[aippi]

The only reason the cast aluminum is still used on the Police and Wingmaster is for Marketing. I have discussed this with people at the factory in Ilion and they even support that response. I have been working on these models for 35 years and do it professionally so I am not giving an opinion I am stating fact.

As for wishful thinking. Yes, I am guilty as I have this wishful thinking that someone should be required to know something about the topic before they post a reply.

[billt]

The only reason the cast aluminum is still used on the Police and Wingmaster is for Marketing.

I agree. Because it would be extremely difficult for ANY company to market any higher end gun that is chock full of plastic. People do not expect, nor do they want, or will they tolerate, plastic on an expensive firearm. Let alone be told some nonsense that it's there because it's "better".

It requires considerable cost to replace cheap plastic trigger guards and bottom plastic with metal. If you doubt that fact check with Brownell's who offer far better, and much more appealing metal replacement upgrades for many of the cheaper, plastic riddled guns currently on the market by the pallet load, all at bargain basement prices. Thank you for proving my point. Glad to see you still possess at least some form of common sense.

[bigbearbear]

The only reason the cast aluminum is still used on the Police and Wingmaster is for Marketing. I have discussed this with people at the factory in Ilion and they even support that response. I have been working on these models for 35 years and do it professionally so I am not giving an opinion I am stating fact.

As for wishful thinking. Yes, I am guilty as I have this wishful thinking that someone should be required to know something about the topic before they post a reply.

BTW just in case some of you aren't aware, Aippi is a certified Armorer for Remington.

In some applications, such as on the trigger guard, polymer is stronger than aluminum. See this video where they do an impact test on trigger guards made of both aluminum and polymer: http://www.rifleshootermag.com/video...than-aluminum/

[billt]

BTW just in case some of you aren't aware, Aippi is a certified Armorer for Remington.

In some applications, such as on the trigger guard, polymer is stronger than aluminum. See this video where they do an impact test on trigger guards made of both aluminum and polymer: http://www.rifleshootermag.com/video...than-aluminum/

It doesn't change anything as far as what is and isn't. You, he, or the gun God himself, are ever going to get people to accept plastic on or in high dollar, upgraded models of firearms. For the lower "Wal-Mart versions" of the same gun perhaps. But don't be so foolish as to think otherwise. Even Remington and Mossberg understands this. Which is why they put metal components on the higher dollar, upgraded versions of these same weapons.

People will never accept plastic in the same manner of quality they do wood or metal. They don't in the auto industry, the furniture industry, or the gun industry. Which is why you don't see it on many of the higher cost versions of any of the above.

You want plastic on your furniture, shop at Levitz. You want it on your gun, shop for it at Wal-Mart. You'll get it, and plenty of it. Plastic is cheap, easy to manufacture, and increases profitability wherever it is used. Which is exactly the reason WHY it is used. That is why you see so much of it. It is, and helps create, disposable products that have no soul, or heirloom value or quality.

If you doubt that ask yourself how many of todays Glocks and XD pistols will be around in a hundred years, compared to high grade Colt's and Browning's? And if there are any, the odds are they'll be sitting on a folding card table in someone's driveway during a weekend garage sale. Not in someone gun safe, or on display in a museum . Again, there is a very good reason for that, and it's not because it's "better".

[aippi]

Again. Wrong. There are no Wal-mart brands as the guns they are sell are the same as you buy in a gun store. No manufacturer makes store brands any longer that I know of. There could be some and I would be interest if anyone knows of any. I am 61 years old and remember all the store brands but that is history now.

Again. Wrong. Glocks have been around a long time and the first ones out are still putting lead down range and are here to stay. They will be here when both you and I are gone. Also, the US Military is about to get away from the 92F (thanks goodness) and some of the contenders are Glock, XD and M&P. Looking forward to seeing if they choose one of these cheap plastic guns and give the contract to Wal-Mart.

I have decided not to debate you further on the topic as you refuse to understanding how these materials function in a weapons platform and make the weapons better. You just keep repeating the same mess.

[rbcb]

Hey aippi,
I was wondering about these new 870's with the plastic stuff(by the way I own one as wellas an older one from 72) can you give me a break down on the springs used in the trigger group ? I hear different things about them most often the dog carrier spring non mim extractor and so on.

Thanks
An 870 dummy

[bighead]

Me thinks someone doesn't understand the difference between plastic and polymer.Also, using the premise "if the military uses x, it must be stronger" is a giant fallacious leap in logic.Many holes in this argument.

[DArBad]

Me thinks someone doesn't understand the difference between plastic and polymer.Also, using the premise "if the military uses x, it must be stronger" is a giant fallacious leap in logic.Many holes in this argument.

Of course everyone understand that its all in the semantics. Plastic/polymer, however one wants to use the term, we all understand.

BUT, here is the thing, IF, indeed polymer is superior, why is it then that on the MORE EXPENSIVE models, Remington/Mossberg use the METAL and not the POLYMER???

Been following this thread back and forth, its even gotten quite ugly and personal. At the end of the day, the OP stated he does not want to get the Remington due to the plastic/polymer trigger group..........and that's that.

Me, I don't really care either way, I like BOTH brands.

[bighead]

To refer to polymer as plastic when making a direct comparison is not semantics, it's a misnomer and skews the entire argument imo.Remington uses polymer, Mossberg uses aluminium.There is no metal vs plastic therefore it shouldn't enter the equation.Why a company uses x is merely an indication of corporate preference, not quality.To assume otherwise is to assume said company only makes decisions that 100% benefit the consumer.We all know that's not the case.

Either way, in 6 days and 7 hours I'm going to go retrieve the 870 that AIP Tactical built from jail and shoot the ***** out of it

As a side note I'm also looking for a 590 to purchase just because...

Peace out

[billt]

As a side note I'm also looking for a 590 to purchase just because...

Don't do it. Go for the 500. It's cheaper and "better" because it has more plastic in it.

[billt]

BUT, here is the thing, IF, indeed polymer is superior, why is it then that on the MORE EXPENSIVE models, Remington/Mossberg use the METAL and not the POLYMER???

Because people do not want, nor will they accept, plastic on higher grade, more expensive guns...... Period. They will turn away from it. This is what these guys fail to accept or understand. It's the same reason most tools that contain plastic are far cheaper, and do not last as long as the same type of tool made from metal. You can buy a cheap, plastic hose nozzle for less than a buck. Or you can spend $10.00 or more on one that is made from metal, and will last for years. It's no different with guns.

These guys are trying to take tensile strength numbers out of an engineering handbook, then are trying to translate those numbers into some abstract form of quality, that should determine what should and shouldn't be marketable. It won't work regardless of how hard they try.

The person paying for a more expensive grade gun does not want to take it out of the box, only to find it's full of plastic components. That is the common sense factor that is present in all of this, which none of these guys can manage to understand, let alone accept. You can't force people to buy what doesn't appeal to them, by telling them "how good" you think it is. Especially when said item is far more profitable and cheaper to produce. It throws the "good factor" right out the window. People don't care because all they see is cheap.

Also UV light destroys plastic, PVC, polymer, name it, by decomposition. Expose it to sunlight for a period of time and it will shatter like glass. This is not the kind of crap people want to see on ANY gun, let alone a higher grade model. As I said, plastic is cheaper and affords a higher degree of profitability. That is why gun manufacturers use it. It really is just that simple.

[bighead]

Don't do it. Go for the 500. It's cheaper and "better" because it has more plastic in it.

I thought the 590 had all the different sights and shell carrier?Hell I don't know, I bought a 500 a few years ago and the thing died on me first trip out.Sent it back and got a refund.I figure the 590 is closer to the 870 so I guess that's why im looking for one.