pump pistol grip

[CWDraco]

Your own links specifically say, a shotgun no longer a shotgun becomes a "pistol grip
firearm" and that a DD is half inch bore "except a shotgun or shotgun shell"
Is it really that hard to follow? There are no more protections in law.

Its the other way around. A DD isnt a shotgun, as soon as your firearm isnt a shotgun, it can be a DD. This is due to the bore and its non-sporting use.

It's like talking to a brick wall. I'm done.

Because you just figured out you are wrong. How about just admitting you now realize you were wrong and understand the law now.

I know being part of the group is more important to people then supporting a person on the outside, but come on now. It seems pretty darn clear you know they (and you are wrong). Just man up and say I am right.


Once you do that we can have an adult debate on "shotgun shells" in the DD law. I am not going there until I find a person who clearly understands the DD laws. So far no one has met that threshold. I am not being rude, its just plain as day.

[56Chevy]

Who want to buy a Mossberg Cruiser from me for $2,000 before it's banned?

[CSACANNONEER]

Listen man. I don't know where you get off thinking by simply telling people I am spreading FUD you are correct. That's a fools folly if not diverting the issue. Stomping your feet on the ground like a 8 yr old child isnt going to win this debate.

Show me where in the law an ADA, with a criminal complaint can't say its an AOW or DD.

It meets the statutory definition and the controlling agency has stated any weapon without a sporting purpose with a bore over 1/2 inch is a DD.

As of 6/16/2013 the BATFE has not offered any ruling on a shotgun modified into a one of these. They simply point to existing laws which state it can be considered a DD under the right circumstances.

Your flare gun, bought at boating supply store, can be ruled a DD if you also posses anti-personnel ammo. This flare gun can also be ruled a firearm, yet is not treated as such normally. This little wording in the law is the only saving grace, "SHOTGUN SHELL" and "sporting". If you lose those as a defense, you are guilty of possessing a DD.

I offered the debate twice now, lets see if you are smart enough to figure this out. I am truly LOL at a guy who says I lack knowledge yet doesn't even know why he could be correct.

Go ahead for the 4th time, show me a link proving me wrong or just proving you are right.

I am the only person who has provided links to actual real life documents to my points.

You got nothing but hot air and a high post count.

@ KeepYourChange, if you want to convert it, you can. No one is going to mess with you unless you commit a criminal act with it or for some reason draw attention from the wrong people. There is safety in numbers and thousands of people have done it, but that doesn't mean its 100% legal.

Adding a second pistol grip will further alienate you from the general public and strengthen an ADAs position the firearm has no sporting purpose and is being used as a weapon, which they will say requires an AOW tax stamp or DD cert by the GCA/NFA definitions. The BATFE has issued a similar ruling in 95-3 for other non-shotguns with a bore over 1/2 inch diameter.

I have shown you all the correct documentation from the BATFE. This is the current legal aspect of what you want to do. My first post is the most correct one, its just hard for many to understand because they lack the background knowledge on this subject, (even though they talk a big game). I edited that first post to be a bit clearer.

Listen man, you are completely confused and don't even understand the difference between an "other" title one firearm and a title two AOW. Do you really think that this: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=347839800 requires a NFA tax stamp? If so, you really need to contact ATF and ask them or retain a firearms attorney to explain all the flaws in your argument. I don't care what my post count is and, your bringing it up only goes to show that you are confused enough to think that anyone's post count justifies the validity of their opinion. I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain the flaws in your thinking because, I doubt it will do any good. However, to validate my opinion, I have spent a little time speaking to ATF and many 07FFLs with SOTs in person (at SHOT Shows and other venues) about NFA AOWs and changing their configurations. The example in the above link is not a title two AOW. That said, sure an ADA could charge one for possession of an illegal AOW for simply wearing underwear. That doesn't mean the charges or underwear will stick or that the ADA won't be laughed out of court. Anyway, good luck to you. I hope that someday you'll be capable of understanding how a PG only 12g with a VFG, +18" barrel and an OAL of +26" can't be considered a "handgun or other firearm capable of being concealed" so, it doesn't require a tax stamp. Maybe you can ask your short bus driver to explain it to you in a way that your capable of comprehending??????

[prc77]

or this

http://www.impactguns.com/mossberg-cruiser-12g-185in-pistol-grip-6-shot-parkerized-must21yrsold-015813541251.aspx

or this

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/46368

or this

http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotguns-pump-action-500-special-purpose-persuader-cruiser-6-shot/50450

or this

http://policelink.monster.com/products/products/401-mossberg-590-compact-cruiser

put a AFG, front pistol grip, drum mag on all of the above they are still is not an AOW,, but,


all are candidates to be used to build an AOW

and don't forget to MAN up when you find out that you are wrong.

[DM_Mossberg500]

Register your pistol grip 18 inch barrel shotgun as a AOW then if you're so worried. Then you can saw down the barrel .

[XenosAce]

Mind is blown. Everyone is FUD! EVERYONE! Oh shoot did I say that aloud?

[prc77]

Mind is blown. Everyone is FUD! EVERYONE! Oh shoot did I say that aloud?

so,, in your mind,, what is FUD

[repubconserv]

Holy crap, this thread is retarded (well... not the entire thread, just the one person saying that a PG only shotgun is an AOW)

to the OP: Length is the main thing to worry about with pump shotguns. As long as the barrel is 18" or over, and as long as the overall length is is 26" or over, you have a title 1 gun. federally you can do whatever the hell you want to it (A few things like 922r apply for imported guns I think) and in ca you can not manufacture, import, sell, loan a large capacity magazine for your gun. In ca you can have PG folding/sliding stock, PG w/no stock, VFG, AFG, detachable mag, large capacity mag (if you legally own it), flash hider, bayonet lug (which was a part of the federal AW ban, not the CA ban).

Some words of advice though,

1. if you do go PG only with no stock, do not let the gun bash your face in.
2. I have heard from a reliable gunsmith on here (screen name AIPPI) that a VFG can bend the action bars on a pump and will make them bind that = no good

[repubconserv]

Everyone I have ever talked to (who had a pistol grip shotgun) refers to this,


as if it says, "a barrel 12 inches or more but less then 18 inches is a pistol" So their 18 inch shotgun isnt a pistol. The regulation doesn't say that.

It says, a pistol with a smooth bore {stop, next criteria}
a weapon with two barrels, one rifled one smooth bore 12"+ and 18" or less that is manually feed{ stop, next criteria}
ect ect

These are AOWs both, these are two separate weapons and the first is your 18"+ shotgun you removed the stock on and installed a pistol grip. The BATFE has ruled that they are not shotguns without a shoulder stock and cannot be transferred to a person under 21. Also this means they could be classified as AOWs, or DDs if a DA wants to screw you.

Lets try and wade through this crap swamp you have laid out here. we'll take it one post at a time so you can digest as you read

Pistol Grips and Shotguns
Firearms with pistol grips attached:



You are hung up on this section. Really, I think it is misleading and random to throw the "handgun/pistol" part in here because nowhere, let me say it again nowhere in this memo does it call a PG only shot gun, a handgun.

Federal law provides under 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), that if the firearm to be transferred is “other than a rifle or shotgun,” the purchaser must be 21 years of age or older.
In fact right here it says "other than a rifle or shotgun", it does not say handgun.
Certain commercially produced firearms do not fall within the definition of shotgun under the GCA even though they utilize a shotgun shell for ammunition. For example, firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the buttstock are not shotguns as defined by the GCA.
A firearm with a pistol grip in lieu of the shoulder stock is not designed to be fired from the shoulder and, therefore, is not a shotgun. Since it is a firearm “other than a rifle or shotgun,” the purchaser must be 21 years of age or older. Additionally, interstate controls apply. The licensee and transferee must be residents of the same State.It says it again here, it is not a handgun, it is simply "other"

Other questions raised pertain to entries made in the licensee’s required records with respect to firearm “type.” These entries should indicate the firearm type as “pistol grip firearm.”Pistol grip firearm... does not call it a handgun, nor a pistol

Age RestRiction & inteRstAte tRAnsfeR RemindeRs

Licensees are reminded that firearm frames, receivers, and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns) are considered “Other Firearms.”
Holy freaking crap how much more obvious does this have to be? It refers the PG only shotguns as "neither handguns nor longguns, just "other firearms" And this is from your link too

So, have we yet established that it is not a handgun? I hope so, because I'm moving on

[repubconserv]

It says, a pistol with a smooth bore {stop, next criteria}
a weapon with two barrels, one rifled one smooth bore 12"+ and 18" or less that is manually feed{ stop, next criteria}
ect ect

These are AOWs both, these are two separate weapons and the first is your 18"+ shotgun you removed the stock on and installed a pistol grip. The BATFE has ruled that they are not shotguns without a shoulder stock and cannot be transferred to a person under 21. Also this means they could be classified as AOWs, or DDs if a DA wants to screw you.

I kinda get what you're saying here... kinda... it's a bit jumbled but here is what I think you are referring to

… a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).We have, in the previous post, established that a pg only shotgun is not a pistol, so this is useless

The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) as:

… any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person
This is important, remember it for the next sentence
.....etc..... a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell,So this is saying any "pistol" (remember what we have defined as not a pistol?) with a smooth bore that fires a fixed shotgun shell is an Any other weapon .....etc..... 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in lengthThis section is also giving us the definition of "capable of being concealed", if the barrel is under 18" it is an AOW, so if the barrel is over 18" it is not an AOW

From this ATF page

[repubconserv]

So to conclude, what did we learn in the 2 previous posts?

A cruiser type shotgun is not defined by the ATF as a pistol. per this link pistols can not have a secondary grip, otherwise it will be an AOW. (but the cruiser is not a pistol)

we learned that A smoothbore firearm that fires a fixed shotgun shell, that has a barrel of more than 12", but less than 18" and is designed not to be fired from the shoulder is an AOW. Meaning a cruiser type shotgun is not an AOW. (If it were an AOW you would need a tax stamp and this argument would be moot anyway because you can add a VFG to an AOW)

So how would adding a VFG to a non-pistol firearm that is already not considered an AOW... classify it as an AOW?


Let me state again.

Pistols can not have VFG without being reg'd as an AOW. Cruiser is not a pistol so it is fine to add a VFG.

[repubconserv]

If you can fid me one mention of any other firearm besides a pistol/handgun (which a cruiser is not) being classified as an AOW because of a secondary grip, I will concede that you are possibly correct... but until then, you are arrogant and full of yourself.... and wrong

[negolien]

Nice job of thread crapping... Well Done...

[Mitch]

Nice job of thread crapping... Well Done...

This thread deserved nothing less.

[CWDraco]

I am going to use large sized font in an attempt to stop unnecessary posts, since I do not want to keep looking at the thread to see nothing relivant to the issue. I am also adding
I am not saying it makes a pistol, that was solved in the first 4 minutes of this thread. to every one of my post to stop this diversion from the real issue I am warning the OP about.

Once again every single person is diverting from the issue I am talking about.

None of you can provide a link refuting my warning.

I never said you can't buy a pistol gripped smooth bore.

I never said you can't make a pistol gripped smooth bore.

I never said your pistol griped smooth bore REQUIRES a tax stamp.


This is what I mean when I say , not a single person in this thread understands the laws the post about. You all are just repeating what others have told you without the intellectual understanding.

Its like talking to a person who says they understand a combustion engine and they tell you there is a explosion in the engine which comes out the tail pipe and pushes the car down the road.

1- Once you remove the shoulder stock, its no longer a shotgun as per the BATFE.

2- The only reason a smooth bore shotgun isnt a DD is because the law on DDs says a shotgun is excluded.

3- This discrepancy was brought up to the BATFE. They stated the requirement of a sporting purpose is essential to avoiding your non-shotgun smooth bore with a greater than 1/2 inch bore from being classified a DD.

4- It doesn't matter what you bought or what you think you have, a flare gun, a bottle of wine, a lamp, if it meets the statutory definition of a DD, that's what it is.

5- I am the only one to post actual laws showing this to be true.

6- None of you have shown any actual documents showing this isnt true.