pump pistol grip

[CWDraco]

You are correct, I now re-read his run on sentence. I thought he was asking if he could place a VFG on his pump action.

Still the matter remains, a shotgun is defined as having to be shoulder fired.
again,

5) The term "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned,
made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and
designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an
explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball
shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

and


you remove the stock and add a pistol grip, you made a smooth bore non-shotgun. pistol

[DFence]

You are correct, I now re-read his run on sentence. I thought he was asking if he could place a VFG on his pump action.

Still the matter remains, a shotgun is defined as having to be shoulder fired.
again,


and


you remove the stock and add a pistol grip, you made a smooth bore pistol.

Hahaha. Ok

[CWDraco]

Everyone I have ever talked to (who had a pistol grip shotgun) refers to this,

a pistol or revolver having a
barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed
shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels
12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a
single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual
reloading,

as if it says, "a barrel 12 inches or more but less then 18 inches is a pistol" So their 18 inch shotgun isnt a pistol. The regulation doesn't say that.

It says, a pistol with a smooth bore {stop, next criteria}
a weapon with two barrels, one rifled one smooth bore 12"+ and 18" or less that is manually feed{ stop, next criteria}
ect ect

These are AOWs both, these are two separate weapons and the first is your 18"+ shotgun you removed the stock on and installed a pistol grip. The BATFE has ruled that they are not shotguns without a shoulder stock and cannot be transferred to a person under 21. Also this means they could be classified as AOWs, or DDs if a DA wants to screw you.


please read from here on and then go find a link refuting it.
Please read http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/ffl-n...er-2009-11.pdf page 2 lower right. Pistol grip only smooth bore is not a shotgun.

and this http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atfruling.95-3.txt which says only shotguns can have a bore over 1/2 inch, so if your pistol grip only smooth bore pistol isn't a shotgun, (as per the BATFE letter) then it can be classified as a destructive device or AOW if they want.

so if a flare gun can be classified a DD when conditions are right, please show me why your smooth bore isnt a DD if used in a non-sporting way?

food for thought fellsa

again, if you have a link saying otherwise, please show me.

[TKM]

Nah.

You are just being obtuse at this point.

[CWDraco]

Nah.

You are just being obtuse at this point.

wow providing factual BATFE rulings and legal standings is obtuse

[CSACANNONEER]

There are NFA regulated AOWs and then there are title one long guns which don't fit neatly into normal catagories. A smoothbored long gun with a barrel over 18" and an OAL of over 26" which has a PG only stock and a FPG is NOT a NFA regulated AOW. It does NOT require NFA registration or a tax stamp. While you have a better grasp on the subject than many, your interpretation and conclusions are just plain wrong.

[supermario]

It also makes a difference if the shotgun is PUMP ACTION or SEMI AUTO.
A pump action can actually have a detachable magazine, look up Valtro shotgun, thats a legal box mag pump shotgun that does not require maglock.

[CSACANNONEER]

It also makes a difference if the shotgun is PUMP ACTION or SEMI AUTO.
A pump action can actually have a detachable magazine, look up Valtro shotgun, thats a legal box mag pump shotgun that does not require maglock.

True, I was only talking about federal laws. I did not take CA's AW laws into account since, I was trying to show CWD the his error about "AOW"s.

[CWDraco]

There are NFA regulated AOWs and then there are title one long guns which don't fit neatly into normal catagories. A smoothbored long gun with a barrel over 18" and an OAL of over 26" which has a PG only stock and a FPG is NOT a NFA regulated AOW. It does NOT require NFA registration or a tax stamp. While you have a better grasp on the subject than many, your interpretation and conclusions are just plain wrong.

It also makes a difference if the shotgun is PUMP ACTION or SEMI AUTO.
A pump action can actually have a detachable magazine, look up Valtro shotgun, thats a legal box mag pump shotgun that does not require maglock.

True, I was only talking about federal laws. I did not take CA's AW laws into account since, I was trying to show CWD the his error about "AOW"s.

I am quoting BATFE and providing links to the real documents detailing their (BATFE) policy.

You need to stop the BS childish crap. You need to read my links and post your links from actual legal standings that support your belief.

Prove me wrong. I challenge you.

A smooth bore longarm with a pistol grip is not a shotgun. It must be listed as "OTHER" on a Form 4473 and therefor can't be transferred to a person under 21. It is a grey area within the law. The BATFE and several lawyers have warned its a easy case to be made that its an AOW, or DD. They (BATFE) just isn't interested in that route yet.

Your comment on me not having a "grasp on the subject" is hilarious because it seems I understand it better then anyone in this thread. None of you can show me a reg, document, policy, or even a case.

Prove me wrong. Toss me a link. I am completely open to saying I am wrong, ARE YOU?

[CWDraco]

Lets start this debate one point at a time.

1- Is a smooth bore firearm 26" OAL, 18" barrel and only a pistol grip a Shotgun?

Ether agree, or disagree and show me your supporting documentation.

I have a document from the ATF saying it's their policy its not.

[Quiet]

Lets start this debate one point at a time.

1- Is a smooth bore firearm 26" OAL, 18" barrel and only a pistol grip a Shotgun?

Show me.

I have a document from the ATF saying it's their policy its not.

Under Federal laws, it is not a shotgun.

It is a Title 1 Other firearm.

[CWDraco]

Great we both agree. Its no longer a Shotgun.

Now several lawyers have asked the BATFE to elaberate on rule 95-3. AOWs and DDs in relation to a pistol grip smooth bore.

http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atfruling.95-3.txt

Destructive device. --The term "destructive device" means
* * * (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or
which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action
of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which
have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a
shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary or his delegate finds
is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting

It is my understanding they refused to comment saying only that a sporting purpose is a requirement. People hope the "shotgun shell" language will save them in court.

2- Do you think if a criminal complaint was presented to an to an anti-gun ADA, that they would choose not to seek DD charges? Why?

I have several more questions to ask, but I need sleep. I will research your answers tomorrow some time. I hope they include links to prove I am wrong. And I am not just saying that. It would be great to have actual documents, but I fear there are not. I fear you guys are just going off of the old unfounded AOW BS, that has been shown to be false.

[KeepYourChange]

if it has a pistol grip and is not legal to be sold to persons under 21 i would think it falls under some other catagory.but i think there is so much lingo they made up..some say it is some say it isnt some say it does some say it dont

[CWDraco]

if it has a pistol grip and is not legal to be sold to persons under 21 i would think it falls under some other catagory.but i think there is so much lingo they made up..some say it is some say it isnt some say it does some say it dont

There are 3 classes a firearm can be when sold.
Handgun/Pistol
Longarm/shotgun
Other.

By law a bare receiver like an AR15 lower and a pistol grip smooth bore are "Other"

The fact its "other" can get you into hot water. Its a spiders web, especially if you attached a second forward grip, which is what I thought you were talking about doing. My advise on a single pistol grip is not to do it on a HD firearm. HD is not sporting, and the BATFE has said "sporting" is a requirement to keep a "other" out of the Destructive Device Class of firearms.

[CSACANNONEER]

There are 3 classes a firearm can be when sold.
Handgun/Pistol
Longarm/shotgun
Other.

By law a bare receiver like an AR15 lower and a pistol grip smooth bore are "Other"

We agree on this.Well, there are 3 classes of title one firearms. There are other classes of firearms which do not fall into the title 1 category at all. Now, stop spreading FUD about a firearm that is +26" OAL, has a +18" smoothbore barrel, a PG without a stock and a FPG is a NFA item. It is not a NFA AOW. It is nothing more than a title 1 "other" and does not require NFA registry nor a tax stamp. You clearly don't understand the laws and aren't willing to accept the fact that your research is incomplete and your conclusions are incorrect.