Shotgun ammo help.... Question...

[negolien]

lol

Some cops have moved away from #4 buckshot due to poor penetration on heavy clothing. Every major agency issues 00 buck for LE duty. Do you think the guy they are shooting is not the same guy that is breaking into your house?

/yawn "Indoors - birdshot will stop anything. If you must use something heavier - #4 buckshot

If you are shooting at zombies across the street or in a car trying to ram you - 00 buckshot" I 100 % agree sir.

[swamp2]

Wow, so much fail in this thread. I was chomping at the bit until I saw this:

Consider shooting someone wearing a heavy leather jacket from the side. The shot may have to go through a leather jacket, the arm, the bone, back through the jacket, back through the jacket a third time, through skin and ribs, and then gets to the good stuff.

That is exactly the point, add stress, poor lighting, a moving subject, along with a very large or perhaps overweight subject, finally add in a side shot and perhaps a poorly placed shot. These ALL stack the deck strongly in favor of your shot not effectively stopping in that scenario. Add in any kind of bird shot with some of the compromising factors above and you have a unequivocally clear recipe for failure to incapacitate, PERIOD. Sure, having all of these factors at the same time is unlikely, but defense is all about stacking ones deck as much in their own favor as possible.

As others have pointed out 00 and #1 buck are nearly universal for police, FBI, military, etc. None of these folks use increasingly lethal rounds either.

Wound ballistics experts also clearly advise only the two types of shot shells above for a sufficient choice in ammunition.

[bernieb90]

/yawn "Indoors - birdshot will stop anything. If you must use something heavier - #4 buckshot

If you are shooting at zombies across the street or in a car trying to ram you - 00 buckshot" I 100 % agree sir.

I don't usually quote Evan Marshall regarding wound ballistics, but in this case I think it is relevant.

also have seen #4 fail to penetrate deeply enough on real bad guys-my favorite high risk warrant service gun was an 870 with Federal foster slugs.

How about Massad Ayoob.

At LFI, we suggest buckshot. It has proven itself over the years as the optimum close/intermediate range antipersonnel shotgun round.



Birdshot can still go through sheetrock. One does not minimize danger to family members in other rooms by using birdshot; one does so by working out a coordinated defense plan that will not have one firing in the direction of other household members. If the armed, identified intruder ducks behind a wall or piece of furniture or other barrier, you WANT to be able to reach through and hit him.

How about Dr. Gary Roberts.

I prefer #1 buckshot, as it offers adequate penetration depth, reasonable intermediate barrier penetration, and 35% more tissue crush than 00 buckshot

Pat Rogers maybe.

As others have stated...
The purpose of utilizing Deadly Physical Force against another human being is to stop them from performing a specific act that would cause DPF or Serious Physical Injury against you or a third person.

Your only thought should be to stop that felonious action. You need to use the most appropriate tools for the purpose.
A fact of life is that any projectile will penetrate- a lot or a little. Those projectiles that penetrate more are generally more useful anti personel rounds. They are more likely to penetrate common building material. Those that penetrate buiding material less will generally work less efficiently on people.

I have worked for several organizations/ agencies in my career, and none recommended anything less then #4B (and i felt that was kinda' anemic)
From my perspective, when carrying a gage at work in a pro active unit, i used slug.
For my purposes, i use 5.56x45mm, not shotgun, to defend the casa.
If i were to use a SG, it would be specific 00B, or slug.

I'm just saying.....

If you feel that you are more qualified than these folks to suggest defensive ammunition I would be more than happy to hear your credentials. For me I am using buckshot.

[AAShooter]

Well summarized.

[Frito Bandido]

Winchester AA is some of the highest quality ammo, especially for re-loading. Even if you don't re-load, you make some reloader friends "donating" the hulls. I've heard the Remington STS loads are also high quality but I've never used them.

I have a wife, toddler and a roomate in my house, so I am also concerned with overpenetration. I keep the first shot at #6 birdshot. After that, the tube is full of 2-3/4 low recoil 00 buck.

The longest shot I would conceivably need to take in my house is about 8yds down a hallway. Any engagements in a room would be a maximum of 3-5yds. I really doubt I'd need to take a follow-up shot unless there is more than 1 intruder in the house. If I do, that's when the 00 buck comes in. After the first shot everyone in the house should have gotten down to the ground, so I'd be a little less concerned about over-penetration at that point.

[Frito Bandido]

As others have pointed out 00 and #1 buck are nearly universal for police, FBI, military, etc. None of these folks use increasingly lethal rounds either.

Law enforcement officers are practically immune from prosecution if their errant rounds should strike an innocent bystander. If I shoot off a slug in my house and it flies out my house, into my neighbor's house and kills someone in there... guess what? I'm going to prison for a very long time. A police officer doesn't have to worry about that. It is completely sensible for a civilian facing the realities of the criminal justice system to choose a different load that will accomplish the objective of stopping a threat, but lessen the possibility of getting innocent people stuck in the crossfire.

You can't compare civilian home defense with police and military work. Very different animals.

[AAShooter]

You certainly can when you consider Problem #1: Stopping the Threat. Problems #2 and #3 may differ but to ignore the data, studies and practices of law enforcement is foolish.

[sholling]

The longest shot I would conceivably need to take in my house is about 8yds down a hallway. Any engagements in a room would be a maximum of 3-5yds. I really doubt I'd need to take a follow-up shot unless there is more than 1 intruder in the house. If I do, that's when the 00 buck comes in. After the first shot everyone in the house should have gotten down to the ground, so I'd be a little less concerned about over-penetration at that point.

Whatever floats your boat, but if someone is coming at me from 8yds he's getting a double tap of 00 buck center mass. At 8yds there simply isn't time to stop and reevaluate the threat and reengage if he's still coming at you. A Shotgun isn't a Phaser and in the 1 second that it takes an already moving man to cover 8yds he may not even realize that he's been shot before he reaches you, and in reality is probably going to be no more than 2 yards away by the time of the 2nd shot in the double tap. Remember that even a fatal wound isn't always an instant stopper and the attacker may still have time to inflict fatal damage to you before he loses consciousness. The key to 12ga double taps is having the right tool for the job and practicing double taps with it.

[AAShooter]

Whatever floats your boat, but if someone is coming at me from 8yds he's getting a double tap of 00 buck center mass. At 8yds there simply isn't time to stop and reevaluate the threat and reengage if he's still coming at you. A Shotgun isn't a Phaser and in the 1 second that it takes an already moving man to cover 8yds he may not even realize that he's been shot before he reaches you, and in reality is probably going to be no more than 2 yards away by the time of the 2nd shot in the double tap. Remember that even a fatal wound isn't always an instant stopper and the attacker may still have time to inflict fatal damage to you before he loses consciousness. The key to 12ga double taps is having the right tool for the job and practicing double taps with it.

People are thinking that this threat is contained to the house. What if your attacker decides to drag your kid outside to his car? Or, you wake up and some creep is going out the window with your kid? . . . game on and your assumptions can severely limit your ability to respond.

[sholling]

People are thinking that this threat is contained to the house. What if your attacker decides to drag your kid outside to his car? Or, you wake up and some creep is going out the window with your kid? . . . game on and your assumptions can severely limit your ability to respond.

That is why there is a gun locker right next to my bed that contains a Benelli M1 Super 90 and a Mini-14 along with spare ammo for both. I like having the right tool for every job on hand and ready to go.

[Pfletch83]

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I like the Shotgun for HD for the simple reason you can load it to minimize over penetration and for particular encounters. Any Handgun you use is going thru a few walls no doubt about it. Any Buckshot you use is going thru a few walls no doubt about it. You also are going to be jacked up making aiming problematic. The shotgun must be employed correctly in a HD situation also. You take up a position that defends a choke point , call 911 immediately while yelling you are armed and willing to use deadly force and racking the action chambering your 1st round of #8.

Do some google searches on Birdshot penetration. People can run their mouths all they want about buckshot but the tests don't lie. I saw an outstanding piece on one of the outdoor channel shows on penetration of shotgun ammo. Any buckshot is penetrating a minimum of two pieces of drywall or one complete wall. You hit someone at 7 yards or closer (the average distance of defense engagements) with some #8 and that's going to seriously hamper the bad guys determination to continue the attack. It's also going to stop the attack at least momentarily if not permanently. No one let me say that again NO ONE is going to take a 12 gauge blast without at least temporarily being stopped cold at such a close range. I stagger the loads also keeping my Shotty "Cruiser Ready" or empty chamber, safety off tube full with 1 round of #8, 3 rounds of 000 and finally a slug. the #8 is also a good trap/skeet load imo.

Shotguns are great for defense and my 1st choice. I only go with the Handgun because of the inability to carry a shotgun for defense wherever you go lol. Below is a link to one of my favorite Birdshot myth busting videos.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...=0&FORM=NVPFVR

Racking that shotgun will also give away your position, remember that the invader (or group of home invaders) will most likely be armed as well.

And #8 bird shot while good for manual of arms practice should not be used as a home defense round due to the lack of mass of said pellet size.

#4 Buckshot (not birdshot) is a very good option as an in home defensive load due to the mass of said pellet size and the reduced chance of over penetration (Notice I said reduced chance of over penetration) if you intend to keep a shotgun for home defense and wish to keep it ready for action. have it stored where only you and other trusted members of the household know where it is (as well as it's condition of readiness) . Keep a round in the chamber safety on with extra ammo ( of the same type) stored either with it or on it. Then all you need to do is slip a few rounds into the magazine tube and flick the safety off, or if a shot is needed very fast you can single load it (which requires practice)

[swamp2]

Law enforcement officers are practically immune from prosecution if their errant rounds should strike an innocent bystander. If I shoot off a slug in my house and it flies out my house, into my neighbor's house and kills someone in there... guess what? I'm going to prison for a very long time. A police officer doesn't have to worry about that. It is completely sensible for a civilian facing the realities of the criminal justice system to choose a different load that will accomplish the objective of stopping a threat, but lessen the possibility of getting innocent people stuck in the crossfire.

You can't compare civilian home defense with police and military work. Very different animals.

As noted just below your post you can compare them. We like to use miltary and police style firearms and ammunition as well. Stopping a threat is #1.

Although it certainly is a lofty/thoughtful/intellectual exercise to worry about over penetration, it should not guide your decision. First of all, worry about practice, with practice, under stress, doing so one is much more likely to puts rounds on target. That helps stop a threat and also nearly eliminates the chance of any additional harm from over penetration. The relatively small reduction in over penetration from #4 buck compared to #1 or 00 just is not worth the reduced terminal ballistics. Certainly anything smaller than #4 buck is simply WRONG advice. #4 may be a reasonable compromise, but in my opinion the drawbacks are smaller than the gains.

Slugs are a entirely different game with regards to their penetration (massive to say the least). That being said slugs still can have a legitimate purpose in HD (engaging a target behind a wall or in some rare circumstances even in a vehicle).

[Frito Bandido]

As noted just below your post you can compare them. We like to use miltary and police style firearms and ammunition as well. Stopping a threat is #1.

Although it certainly is a lofty/thoughtful/intellectual exercise to worry about over penetration, it should not guide your decision. First of all, worry about practice, with practice, under stress, doing so one is much more likely to puts rounds on target. That helps stop a threat and also nearly eliminates the chance of any additional harm from over penetration. The relatively small reduction in over penetration from #4 buck compared to #1 or 00 just is not worth the reduced terminal ballistics. Certainly anything smaller than #4 buck is simply WRONG advice. #4 may be a reasonable compromise, but in my opinion the drawbacks are smaller than the gains.

Slugs are a entirely different game with regards to their penetration (massive to say the least). That being said slugs still can have a legitimate purpose in HD (engaging a target behind a wall or in some rare circumstances even in a vehicle).

Some good points in your rebuttal. My main point that stopping a threat is not my only priority. I want to defend not only my life, but also preserve my freedom. I try to take an "all of the above" approach... both elements are equally important to me.

Ultimately training wins out over ammo selection, but both are important.

Part of taking an "all of the above" approach is also seeing the value of slugs. I don't completely discount their use, but in my opinion they should be reserved for an outdoor situation only. My comments were more in regards to inside a dwelling. I do actually keep 5 slugs on a buttstock shell holder in case a target needs to be engaged outside or in a vehicle as you suggest, but I would never fire a slug inside the house unless I had no other option. 00 Buck has plenty of power to go through a wall if I need it to, or through furniture.

[Che762x39]

Interesting reading and opinions. It really depends on where you live, a apartment at Pico/Union is much different from a trailerhome on the back forty.

The most important thing is have a plan and training.

YMMV

[JagerDog]

Penetrate, yes. Continue to be lethal. NO

I have first hand experence being "peppered" with birdshot through an object.
Not fun, but not lethal. If it were buck shot, chances are i would not have been so lucky.

I've got personal experience at being shot from ZERO feet with a stiff duck load of #5's. Buckshot, I'd be dead. Birdshot, I could've returned fire if there was a threat.

You're assuming a head on center of mass hit with your bird load...while assuming a miss with buckshot. That's just not realistic.

I wanna break bones and penetrate in that more likely oblique shot.

You really shouldn't be counseling people....against basically ALL professional judgement.