Your Ideal Personal Defense Shell

[mcubed4130]

I'm getting my information from seeing what birdshot does to a human body at close range, and common sense. Trust me, at close range (less than 7 yards) birdshot will kill. Very few HD scenarios are longer shots than 7 yards.

AT 21 FEET as I stated, birdshot will be very effective yet will not penetrate sheetrock walls. It's like a huge Glaser Safety Slug. Try it yourself. Measure off 7 yards/21 feet and shoot something. The reason this distance is so relevant is that most human confrontations happen at that range or closer.

I agree that buck is warranted for most HD applications if you are sure of your impact area. BTW, I wouldn't want to live in an apartment next to you if you keep a shotgun with buck for HD.

I think you and the guys at Box'O'Truth - need to fight this one out a bit.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=678898&postcount=36

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

... A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.
...
"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"...

In the meantime; I'll keep making sure I hit what I aim at if the time comes when I need to hit what I'm aiming at - with my #00 buck.

-M3

[tombinghamthegreat]

+1 for birdshot being uneffective. Might be ok for birds and target shooting but other than that it is not reliable for HD unless you are just trying to scare someone away. Heavy clothing or body armor would make the birdshot ineffective would could get the user killed if the attacker is armed. When it comes to HD, why not use the most effective shell since your life is on the line? Possible over penetration is just the cost of doing business.

[socalguns]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 1

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12%20gauge.html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12%20gauge.html

[11Z50]

The Box-o-Truth testing was very interesting. In fact, the test validates what I thought, and although I only shot 2 pieces of sheetrock 4" apart, Buck penetrated and BS did not.

As for all of the anecdotal comments from third party reports, I think they are just that....anecdotal third party reports. The old "I have a friend who is a cop..." stories.

My first hand observations are:

I responded to the scene of a shooting in which a man had been shot through a front door by a load of birdshot. The shell casing was found about 10 feet from the front door. The victim went down immediately, falling on his back. He had entrance wounds from just above the abdomen to his collar bones. Later, in the ER, the Doc showed me the X-ray, and many of the pellets had entered the lungs, but none had hit the heart. The Doc told me this guy was in serious trouble and would have to have surgery immediately. He did survive.

I was sent to another shooting in which a burglar had been hit with a load of birdshot as he was crawling in a window. The shooter was about 10 feet away, in the same room, and fired 1 round of #7.5 BS from a single-shot. The shot impacted the crook where the neck joins the shoulder on the left side. There was a wound I could stick my fist in, and there was a huge amount of blood loss. This dude died in seconds, and was still lying halfway thru the window.

These are not stories I was told by someone else, these are things I personally witnessed.

I have attended training on Medico-Legal Investigations of Death, taught by Werner Spitz, Michael Baden, and Henry Lee. They examined literally thousands of shotgun deaths and showed us hundreds of images. A blast of BS at less than 21 feet is quite often fatal, according to these noted pathologists. (They only looked at the dead ones)

Of course, anyone that's been Dove hunting knows that if someone fires a shotgun in your general direction at more than 50 yards results in little more than a sting and lots of consternation. My nearest neighbor's house is 94 yards from my front door. If I have to cap a BG it will be at about 12 feet. At that range, Buck will probably pass thru the BG and be headed directly at my neighbor's house. If my first round is #6, any stray pellets will probably not hit the neighbors, and if so, with little force. A stray pellet of 00B will be very dangerous at that distance.

Again, if collateral damage is a concern, I don't know that 00B is the solution.

As I said in the beginning, IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION. My opinion is just that, an opinion. The question of the OP asked for an opinion, so I rendered mine, based on my personal experiences.

[steadyrock]

I have attended training on Medico-Legal Investigations of Death, taught by Werner Spitz, Michael Baden, and Henry Lee. They examined literally thousands of shotgun deaths and showed us hundreds of images. A blast of BS at less than 21 feet is quite often fatal, according to these noted pathologists. (They only looked at the dead ones)

Sounds like a skewed sample to me.

[1911su16b870]

I've always either had 00 or 000 buck in the Mossberg 500 I keep under my bed, but recently I 've had people telling me that I ought to use something like #4 buckshot instead. What do you use, and why? Do you stagger different shells in a certain order?

For me in the home, Low Recoil Law Enforcement 00 buck.

If I'm out and about, I'd want 00 buck in the 870 cruiser ready and a side saddle full of slugs.