Your Ideal Personal Defense Shell

[M. Sage]

Slugs would only make me nervous for the neighbors, BUT! If I lived in a house that had brick exterior walls, or the nearest neighbor was a mile away or something...

Let me tell you, slugs vs buckshot for putting deer down is night and day. I can only imagine what it'd do to stop a threat. It'd be messy, that's for sure.

[ivanimal]

That would be a short barreled shotgun in this state and a big felony.

[Knight]

I used #4 buck when I relied on my 870 for HD. For me, it depends on the living situation; now that I live in a cramped apartment I switched to my 1911.

[11Z50]

I know I say this a lot, but.......

DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION!

Were I in an apartment or a tract home development, I think I'd go for #5 or 6 birdshot. It will drop a bad guy like a rock at 21 feet (7 yards) but won't penetrate sheetrock walls.

In my rural setting, my HD shotgun rests chamber clear, hammer down, off safe, 1st rd #6 and the rest the ubiquitous 00B. You see, we had a wild dog problem, and #6 does a dog up right. Also, #6 will do fine on humanoids at close range. 00B will do the rest. Since I live on 2 acres, I could have some rather long shots.

I could see the need for slugs in certain situations. I keep a few around just in case.

[aplinker]

I'm not sure where you're getting your info, but birdshot of any type has been shown to be essentially ineffective against thickly clothed, determined perps. It has entirely too little penetration. You might want to read through the linked thread posted in this one.

#4 buchshot is pretty much the lightest load suggested, unless you're into the "racking the shotgun will make'em run!" thinking.

I would never, not even in my apt, put birdshot in my shotgun.

I know I say this a lot, but.......

DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION!

Were I in an apartment or a tract home development, I think I'd go for #5 or 6 birdshot. It will drop a bad guy like a rock at 21 feet (7 yards) but won't penetrate sheetrock walls.

In my rural setting, my HD shotgun rests chamber clear, hammer down, off safe, 1st rd #6 and the rest the ubiquitous 00B. You see, we had a wild dog problem, and #6 does a dog up right. Also, #6 will do fine on humanoids at close range. 00B will do the rest. Since I live on 2 acres, I could have some rather long shots.

I could see the need for slugs in certain situations. I keep a few around just in case.

[M. Sage]

+1, birdshot might work fine for some dogs, but it's not reliable against people.

[11Z50]

I'm not sure where you're getting your info, but birdshot of any type has been shown to be essentially ineffective against thickly clothed, determined perps. It has entirely too little penetration. You might want to read through the linked thread posted in this one.

#4 buchshot is pretty much the lightest load suggested, unless you're into the "racking the shotgun will make'em run!" thinking.

I would never, not even in my apt, put birdshot in my shotgun.

I'm getting my information from seeing what birdshot does to a human body at close range, and common sense. Trust me, at close range (less than 7 yards) birdshot will kill. Very few HD scenarios are longer shots than 7 yards.

AT 21 FEET as I stated, birdshot will be very effective yet will not penetrate sheetrock walls. It's like a huge Glaser Safety Slug. Try it yourself. Measure off 7 yards/21 feet and shoot something. The reason this distance is so relevant is that most human confrontations happen at that range or closer.

I agree that buck is warranted for most HD applications if you are sure of your impact area. BTW, I wouldn't want to live in an apartment next to you if you keep a shotgun with buck for HD.

[AJD]

Any projectile that will be effective in pentrating enough to reach vitals is going to penetrate sheetrock walls easily. That's just the way it is. That's why practice and control of the weapon are important. You want to hit your target and minimize missed shots. Birdshot according to folks in the wound ballistics field like the International Wound Ballistics Association, advise that birdshot is not and effective round for home defense even at close range. And yes these folks have also seen what birdshot can and won't do to the human body as many of the experts in this field are experienced trauma surgeons. Even at ranges of less than 10 feet BS penetrates a maximum of 6 inches in ballistic gel. And that's without having to go through heavy clothing or other such obstacles. Birdshot may leave a very nasty looking wound, removing a lot of surface tissue, but it's the deep wounding potential it lacks. Can birdshot kill? Absolutely. But that doesn't make it a reliable stopper when a violent person needs to be stopped as quickly as possible.

[Namerakis]

That would be a short barreled shotgun in this state and a big felony.

What about The Contender?

[11Z50]

Any projectile that will be effective in pentrating enough to reach vitals is going to penetrate sheetrock walls easily. That's just the way it is. That's why practice and control of the weapon are important. You want to hit your target and minimize missed shots. Birdshot according to folks in the wound ballistics field like the International Wound Ballistics Association, advise that birdshot is not and effective round for home defense even at close range. And yes these folks have also seen what birdshot can and won't do to the human body as many of the experts in this field are experienced trauma surgeons. Even at ranges of less than 10 feet BS penetrates a maximum of 6 inches in ballistic gel. And that's without having to go through heavy clothing or other such obstacles. Birdshot may leave a very nasty looking wound, removing a lot of surface tissue, but it's the deep wounding potential it lacks. Can birdshot kill? Absolutely. But that doesn't make it a reliable stopper when a violent person needs to be stopped as quickly as possible.

Marksmanship training is not the issue here. Over penetration is. I don't want my shot to go thru the BG and hit an unintended target. 6" of penetration with 100 or so pellets will definately hit vitals. a 3" knife will reach the heart, lungs and liver. If it's a head shot, the BG will be blinded at the very least. Unless clothing is made of kevlar, it will not be an issue.

At 21 feet, the pattern of my HD shotgun with WW #6 will be contained just inside the size of an average human chest, about a 16" circle. I know this because I've tested it. 7.5 spread a bit more, and #4BS is about the same as #6 in spread. #4 Buck, 1 buck and 00 will penetrate sheetrock. I know, I've tested that too. With #6 Any stray pellets will not go thru a wall, or carry far enough to do damage to my neighbors. 00 will. Were this not a concern, I certainly would just use 00B, or a rifle.

My idea is to use a round that will be less likely to produce collateral dammage for the first shot, which will be less than 21 feet. If for some reason the BG doesn't go down from the massive wound caused by close range birdshot, the next one will be 00B.

Anything short of a .50 BMG cannot guarantee 100% stops. A .22LR will penetrate sheetrock, and penetrate enough to hit vitals, but is much less likely to stop a human. If I have to use #6BS to stop somebody, I'll let you know for sure if it works or not.

[Knight]

What about The Contender?

http://site.huntingblades.com/IMG_1209.JPG

Also a felony (with the .45LC/.410 barrel)

[aplinker]

What about The Contender?

ANY gun that has a barrel less than 18" and can CHAMBER a .410 (or any other real shotgun shell) is a felony in CA, as it's an SBR.

[bigdave1121]

If it's a head shot, the BG will be blinded at the very least.

That's what my Grandaddy always told me. I can see the value in having the first shell as birdshot. I'd make sure and go for face shot though if I could. Then maybe the guy wouldn't be dead, but definitely not putting up a fight anymore.

[AJAX22]

In my home defense gun I load Slug, Slug, Slug, Slug, Slug, Slug, Slug, Slug, and I top it off with a Slug.

If the First Slug doesn't get the job done, Rinse and Repeat.


My side of the story is the only side that will be heard(I don't want some freshly parolled rapist spining some tall about how he followed his lost puppy into my living room, and how I asked him to cut a piece of cake and thats why he needed the big kinfe)

[SFFRONTMAN]

Slug/Buck in various amounts is nothing to laugh about.