Testing OO Buck for HD - Need Advice

[TheExpertish]

I agree with you here. The type of training I recommend is basic; safe handling and manual of arms, learning what the gun will do with different loads, basic shooting skills (many new shotgunners I work with have no clue on how to properly mount the gun to the shoulder and get beat up) and simple malfunction drills. 90% will put their gun away and hardly, if ever, shoot it.



Real world experience leads me to conclude otherwise. I think a better way to say it is that bird shot may get the job done in certain situations and circumstances, but with a much higher probability of not getting the job done than of getting it done.



Knowing the difference between cover and concealment, how to use them both appropriately, understanding the legal and moral aspects of defensive gun use and knowing how to run the gun properly is all that most people should need.

And the understanding that it is a perishable skill and that they need to pull the shotgun out of the closet once in a while and practice.

I agree. Sometimes I have trouble thinking outside of my apartment in a HD situation. Birdshot would do the job here no problem. Funny you bring up the old concealment vs cover which is a great point. I had been shooting for 10 years and didn't take the time to understand the difference till my instructors taught us in the academy.

[NeenachGuy]

Thanks for all the suggestions in the thread. I probably won't be able to test all of the loads that are recommended in this thread this weekend, but I'll be putting in another order with ATG or SGAmmo next week to pick up the ones you guys have talked about on here.

please post results of your tests.

I will post the results here, although it may take some time to get all the pictures taken and brief commentary written up.

[NeenachGuy]

If you understand the facts, with the fact being that most all break ins are by thieves who think you are gone and these people are seldom armed. You will then understand that Home Defense is not like the final scene in the Movie "Scarface" and yes, calling out who is there and racking a shotgun and telling them you are on the phone with the police will make 99.999999999999999999999% of them burst out the door or nearest window.

So announcing yourself and your intent is not a theory. It works and it is the smart thing to do.

The dumb thing to do is to go to your closet and put your Tactical Vest on and grab your weapon just to go sneaking out into the house where you are most likely going to get jumped because you scared the hell out of some punk who thought you were not home. He painics, jumps you and cracks you fool head open because your forgot your Kevlar Helment back in the closet. The perp runs away which is exactly what he would do had you simply called out and scared him off with the period mark being the sound a pump being racked or a slide being released.

Occupied home invasions by armed perps are extremely rare and even in large cities they are rare. Most are drug rip offs or other criminal type activities. They are so rare they always make the news and that can make one think there are more then there are.

So, if you are not a drug dealer or known to keep large amounts of cash in your home then the chances this can happen to you are minute. HOWEVER, single women living alone are at a different risk and we all understand why but even these incidents are not as common as you would think and their best response would be to lock thier bedroom door, pick up their weapon, call out "I am armed and on the phone with the Police and rack that shotgun". The next sound will be the front or back door slamming.

Thanks for the tips. This makes a lot of sense to me.

We live in a remote area; as I mentioned, our nearest neighbor is over a mile away (and that's just one neighbor in that radius, the next one is 2-3 miles out). Then there's the prison in Lancaster, the juvenile facility near Lake Elizabeth, and the other facility in Santa Clarita. I don't know how likely it is that someone would escape from one of these places and make it all the way out to where I am, or if someone else would target our residence for some reason. But, unless there's an LASD patrol in the area at the time that someone were to break in, it's probably a good 30-40 minutes before LE would arrive on the scene (I have to assume that whoever's breaking in to my place would have thought about this), and a cry for help in the middle of the night probably won't get much attention (again, they would have thought about this, too), although it may scare away the coyotes.

I understand that I probably will live out the rest of my life and never have to confront a Clockwork Orange type of scenario, but I feel that it is my responsibility to be prepared to defend myself and my family in any case.

The whole point of this thread was just to get some idea of the different types of ammo that I should try out and try to figure out how they pattern (first hand), and what works best in my particular shotgun. But, I don't fantasize about enacting a Scarface action sequence in my home while my wife and kids cower in a locked closet. In fact, I hope I never have to be in that situation, ever.

Training is a good idea, and I'm going to be looking into doing that this summer.

[BigDogatPlay]

I agree. Sometimes I have trouble thinking outside of my apartment in a HD situation. Birdshot would do the job here no problem.

Again, real world says maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. I'm familiar with a number of cases where people have been shot at relatively close range with a load of bird shot and kept right on fighting. One case I know personally involved a LEO shot from close range, in the days before body armor, with 12 gauge bird shot round. He lost a good sized piece out of his side and out of the inside of his gun arm, but still emptied his revolver at his attacker, taking the bad guy down. The deputy survived. A decent weight of leather coat or some type of filled chamber jacket and the odds of even a decent amount of pellets getting through to the bad guy goes down very rapidly as distance opens.

It'll work at very close ranges, maybe, but my own opinion is I'd rather not bet my life on it when low recoil buck shot rounds running at the same velocity as bird shot target loads will deliver a more robust blow to a bad guy bent on harming me.

[a1rfreshener]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InbyFtvHilM this justifies my use of wax slugs for home defense....

[a1rfreshener]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=TfbrP7ujerE

for those who love slow mo and visual...

[resident-shooter]

Fiocchi low recoil 00. Good price, acceptable recoil in a pump...

[aippi]

I am very picky about the ammo I use in my shotguns. It has to be what ever is on sale. It all does the job. These are not rifles with ballistic consideration. These are smooth bore weapons that will used at distances of a few feet. Shotgun dead is shotgun dead and that is the result they all produce. Any of the leading ammo makers put out good stuff. See a sale on 00 from one of them and grab it if the price is right. Let the Delta Farce Elite Ninja Commandos do the ballistic testing on gelatin and post the results on gun blogs. Who knows, that info can come in handy if you are ever attacked by a bowl of Jello.

[delisle]

My nearest neighbor is about 1.5 miles away (at least), so I'm not too worried about over-penetration, although there's probably more repair work to do on my own home if I shoot a wall or something. I'll take a look at the #8 shot as per your suggestion. Thanks!

Oh, one more thing I forgot to ask... The Hornady TAP rounds have only 8 pellets... I thought it was kind of strange, and can't imagine that one less pellet would make much of a difference, can it?

Knowing that now, fire away with the 00 buck.

[gunsarefun]

I use buckshot because I am not worried about over penetration, but I have a hard time believing that even the cheapest, low base target load #8 shot from a 12 gauge isn't going to do some SERIOUS damage to an intruder at a range of 10 feet or so.

If I had to live in an apartment, bird shot is what I would use.

[NeenachGuy]

I am very picky about the ammo I use in my shotguns. It has to be what ever is on sale. It all does the job. These are not rifles with ballistic consideration. These are smooth bore weapons that will used at distances of a few feet. Shotgun dead is shotgun dead and that is the result they all produce. Any of the leading ammo makers put out good stuff. See a sale on 00 from one of them and grab it if the price is right. Let the Delta Farce Elite Ninja Commandos do the ballistic testing on gelatin and post the results on gun blogs. Who knows, that info can come in handy if you are ever attacked by a bowl of Jello.

You got me... I guess this is all a thinly veiled justification for shooting lots of ammo through my 870. My bad.

[negolien]

whatever

Not one tactical trainer would advise using bird shot on a human target.

Racking the shotgun is analogous to using a pistol for hd and racking the slide...you approach intruders with a round in the chamber ready to go.

You seriously need a training class or two.

hth

-hanko

Straight bull puckey on both counts. The Best Defense show on Outdoor channel contradicted both those wivestails along with several articles in Gun Digest and American Rifleman..

[land locked]

I tested several types of buckshot ammo a few years ago. All of them were bought at Walmart which is usually the cheapest place to buy for me. Out of an 870 cylinder bore they all did well and grouped similar from several distances i measured out. Both the remington bulk pack and winchester bulk pack were consistant with their patterns with no problems. The one thing that surprised me was the Federal ammo I bought. 5 round pack, plated and a bit more expensive. Out of about 30 shells I had fired, 2 had a pattern that stringed like a line vertically on the target. Both were from separate boxes and lot numbers.
I buy what I can afford to shoot and more expensive rounds may not be "better". Buy what you want shoot it and know what it does in your shotgun. I personally buy remington bulk pack 00 buck 2 3/4" at walmart. Cheap and effective.

[831Shooter]

Shotgun, handgun, rifle.. Regardless of your choice of firearm one fact remains the same:

Your caliber/ammunition choice MUST be capable of STOPPING your attacker as quickly as possible. Humans are "stopped" from gunshot wounds due to mostly two factors; central nervous system hit and/or rapid fatal hemorrhage (ie. quickly bleeding out).

In order for the above to be accomplished your bullets must be able to reach the FBI minimum of 12 inches penetration. Birdshot will NOT do so.

#1 buckshot vs. #00 buckshot - 16 pellets for #1 buck vs. 8 or 9 pellets for #00 buck. Those 16 pellets of #1 buck have a pellet spread that equates to the ability to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma. More holes = more/faster bleeding = quicker stopping.

#1 buck is the minimum shot size that consistently penetrates the minimum 12 inches.

That said, while #1 buck is the preferable choice, #00 buck is an entirely acceptable choice as well.

This isn't Hollywood. People don't drop from just any gunshot wound. If anyone is ever in the horrible situation of having to defend themselves with a firearm, stopping your attacker as quickly as possible is what is going to save you.

"Racking a shotgun" for sound effect is extremely bad advice. It will give away any advantage you MIGHT have if the intruder does not already know exactly what room you are in.

HOWEVER, single women living alone are at a different risk and we all understand why but even these incidents are not as common as you would think and their best response would be to lock thier bedroom door, pick up their weapon, call out "I am armed and on the phone with the Police and rack that shotgun". The next sound will be the front or back door slamming.

Everyone who has a firearm for self defense needs a plan of action ahead of time, including the decision as to when you will shoot. If you KNOW someone is in your home, the best advice for anyone; woman, man, mall ninja or "operator" is to lock yourself (and family if applicable) in a designated safe room (or room you can get too if this is not possible), be ready to defend yourself with your firearm, call 911 and do NOT hangup the phone. If the intruder is coming to the room you are in, shout something along the lines of "I am armed", "If you come in I will shoot", etc. If they come through that door you are in a prime position to fire upon them. You KNOW where they are (in the door), they do not know where you are in the room.

It is bad advice for anyone, no matter what their experience level, to try and "clear the house". You are putting yourself at a serious tactical disadvantage. Your chances of being attacked before you even know what hit you are extremely high.

DO NOT depend on "racking your shotgun" or screaming "I am armed" by thinking that "The next sound will be the front or back door slamming." A criminal that has broken into a home, knowing the occupants are home/likely to be home has more than likely already made the decision that he will kill you before he is shot or caught.

There are a number of good resources out there about shotgun defense ammo choice:

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=176

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm (bottom of page)

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

831S

[Shrubmaster]

Pdx1 ftw

As far as birdshot goes, wasn't there somekind of hunting accident involving someone in the white house blasting their 80 year old buddy with birdshot. The said 80 year old laughed it off and went to the hospital to get those pellets pulled out.
That's a pretty good indicator of the true power of the almighty birdshot. It should say on the box "if frail elderly people are shot with this ammo, they'll be fine, just hit the button on their necklace"