Kel-Tec KSG vs Saiga 12

[Excelsior]

That's a hell of a lot of assumptions based on one posted youtube video.

No modifications (except a normal conversion kit), I was able to dump something like 130 rds of buckshot and slugs in 3 hours just fine. It also fired Federal bulk pack birdshot just fine as well.

Oh, but you saw a youtube video. Nevermind, I stand corrected. :P

The mag doesn't get in the way. You can always get a 10rd drum if you prefer. And honestly, I really doubt I'll be needing more than 10rds of buckshot to stop a burglar...and if I ever did, my wife would be behind me handing me the featureless AR. Do you guys really expect to be clearing your house in the middle of the night in your underwear while also carrying extra mags/shotshells? Do you really expect to be reloading from a sidesaddle in a HD situation? I mean, I'm all for having the best tools you can have, but I don't expect to have my house broken in by the entire cast of West Side Story.

To say you wouldn't trust your life to a reliable semi-auto shotgun with a 10rd capacity for normal applications (i.e. you're not clearing houses in Iraq) seems utterly ridiculous. I'm fine with differing opinions and styles; if you prefer a different system, no problem. But can we move away from this juvenile "anything but my preferred weapon is worthless" talk?

Just think of all the effort to sew those long/thin shotgun speed-loader pockets onto jammie pants. Then you couldn't bend your leg all night while sleeping. Guys like me who sleep in boxers would really be in trouble...

[Excelsior]

I never said a mag locked weapon in general is useless(well, I'll explain why I think they suck in a moment for anything other than sitting at a bench). I was clearly referring to the saiga 12. I'm not sure why you're defending the saiga 12 the way you are, considering that my biggest complaint with the platform is the crappy CA laws surrounding it.

You're correct that it would likely be just as crappy to be fumbling with loose shells in the dark as it would a tool to unlock the mag. However it's going to be a hell of a lot easier to grab shells to fumble around with in the dark, than it is the tool to unlock the magazine since it can't be conveniently tethered to the shotgun.

Whether you want to admit it or not, your defensive attitude about someone's criticism of CA laws and their application to the shotgun is a perfect example of being a fanboy. You didn't bother to notice that my problem with the shotgun was the crappy CA laws, and simply got defensive and replied because someone complained about the saiga 12 while ignoring the very clear point made that the biggest problem is the crappy mag lock. The mag lock which defeats the purpose of having a shotgun with a detachable magazine in the first place, no matter what design is used(ak types like the saiga, AR style models, hell even the AA12). You've also still ignored the realistic issue of clearing a jam that may occur when using a mag locked weapon. It sucks.

Based off of my own personal experience shooting in a timed scenario I eventually wound up ditching my mag locked AR and switched to my .22lr rifle because a simple magazine change in broad daylight with only a moderate amount of stress was a time wasting fumbling mess. No way in hell would I ever grab a mag locked weapon in any situation that I might have some adrenaline flowing(brightly lit or in the dark) and want to fumble with a stupid magazine lock(which pocket is my tool in, did I drop the tool, did I even remember to pick up the tool when I grabbed the gun and magazines since I can't keep it tethered to the gun, am I using the correct end of the tool, etc.). Eventually I figured that if I did have a failure in my AR it would pretty much end up being a club, same with the saiga 12.

I've handled a saiga 12 at a gun shop, the short stock was annoying for me but that's something I can change. The crappy CA law requiring the mag lock I cannot change. If I were outside of CA I'd have one for sure, but with these laws it's crap unless I could at least somehow manage to register one as an AW(not going to happen any time soon).

In my personal order of preference: saiga 12 > pump or semiauto tube fed shotgun > mag-locked saiga 12.

Yes the saiga 12 could be a great tool, outside of California.

A non-crap weapon does not become crap simply with the addition of a BB even in "shtf" situations.

[Merc1138]

A non-crap weapon does not become crap simply with the addition of a BB even in "shtf" situations.

Uhh, in "SHTF" I probably wouldn't be worried about a BB. However just in general, yes it becomes crap when you need a separate tool that can't be attached to the gun to drop the magazine for something as basic as a magazine change or at worst a jam. I explained pretty clearly why I think it's crap, have you ever used a mag locked gun in any sort of setting where you're timed? Like I said, simply being timed while shooting targets obviously isn't the same as being pumped full of adrenaline from a truly crappy situation, however I can only imagine that the issues with the BB would be magnified.

Yes, in this case when the biggest advantage of the weapon is it's easily changeable magazine, it becomes crap when that magazine is stuck in place with a lock thanks to a stupid law.

I'd never rely on a mag locked pistol, I'd never rely on a mag locked rifle, and I'd never rely on a mag locked shotgun with no real loading port to clear or reload with.

[Cali-Shooter]

KSG all the way... I'm sick of Saiga's (I have two already).

Besides, I prefer pump vs. semi-auto for shotguns.

[tacticalcity]

Saiga 12 or KSG?? Lol. No contest. The KSG is just a pump SG with 2 tubes. Seems like a gimmick to me. The only selling point for me is the bullpup design. But that's not enough to outweigh the S12 for Bad*ssedness.

S12 is the way to go. And if Kushnapup ever gets their sh*t together, you can have the best of both.

We like and dislike the KSG for the exact opposite reasons.

Likes...

- I like the reliability of a pump (can be fired in any position because it does not use recoil to load next round).
- I like the dual tubes/hi capacity.
- I like the short overall length.
- I like the long top rail for AR style sights and red dot cowitnessing.

Dislikes...

- I don't like that is is bullpup because it is a slow load and dangerous to have the action under your face if it KABOOMs.
- I don't like that it is made by Kel-Tec, as a brand they have mixed reviews.
- I don't like that it will be a long time before we know if it is any good.
- I don't like that the MSRP is so high, as other more battel proven semi-autos like the Remington 1100 Police can be had for that price.
- I don't like that we have no idea when it will be commercially available.

As for the Saiga, I am not a fan at all. Would rather have a Remington 1100 Police.

[Excelsior]

Uhh, in "SHTF" I probably wouldn't be worried about a BB. However just in general, yes it becomes crap when you need a separate tool that can't be attached to the gun to drop the magazine for something as basic as a magazine change or at worst a jam. I explained pretty clearly why I think it's crap, have you ever used a mag locked gun in any sort of setting where you're timed? Like I said, simply being timed while shooting targets obviously isn't the same as being pumped full of adrenaline from a truly crappy situation, however I can only imagine that the issues with the BB would be magnified.

Yes, in this case when the biggest advantage of the weapon is it's easily changeable magazine, it becomes crap when that magazine is stuck in place with a lock thanks to a stupid law.

I'd never rely on a mag locked pistol, I'd never rely on a mag locked rifle, and I'd never rely on a mag locked shotgun with no real loading port to clear or reload with.

The offending appendage (crap in itself) does not render the firearm to be crap.

[Merc1138]

The offending appendage (crap in itself) does not render the firearm to be crap.

In this state it does, if you're taking it out of state and remove the mag lock it's fine.

You guys are so stuck on wanting the saiga 12 to be the best thing since sliced bread, that you're willing to completely ignore the major stipulation we're all stuck with(except for those able to register one as an assault weapon) that completely removes the advantage the design has. If you like the thing just for the sake of it being an AK shotgun, fine. But you can't just ignore the magazine lock problem.

[GW]

A non-crap weapon does not become crap simply with the addition of a BB even in "shtf" situations.

I disagree. That stupid button severely limits the Saiga. It negates its biggest advantage. It's like having a world class sprinter and then making him carry an anvil after he runs 10 steps. He'll still be able to run, but not very well.
and because of that stupid mod, he just became a crap runner.

In a SHTF that explodes around you suddenly, are you going to have the time to find the tools and swap out that stoopid effing button or are you going to fire you 10/11 shots and then be forced to drop it and pick up something else.
If you have advanced warning of SHTF then sure , get rid of that BB and you have a buzzsaw. But, unless you are willing to take the legal risks of leaving that Saiga/AK/AR/FAL/PTR un-BB'd they are crap systems. Fun to shoot but not SHTF go-to weapon.
Great system(s) are turned to crap because of that BB
Stupid effing law

[50 Freak]

I'll stick with my Benelli M3 (pump or semi with just a flick of a switch). Fills both role beautifully and is plenty accurate and don't think I've ever had a jam in the 10 years I've owned it.

[Merc1138]

I disagree. That stupid button severely limits the Saiga. It negates its biggest advantage. It's like having a world class sprinter and then making him carry an anvil after he runs 10 steps. He'll still be able to run, but not very well.
and because of that stupid mod, he just became a crap runner.

In a SHTF that explodes around you suddenly, are you going to have the time to find the tools and swap out that stoopid effing button or are you going to fire you 10/11 shots and then be forced to drop it and pick up something else.
If you have advanced warning of SHTF then sure , get rid of that BB and you have a buzzsaw. But, unless you are willing to take the legal risks of leaving that Saiga/AK/AR/FAL/PTR un-BB'd they are crap systems. Fun to shoot but not SHTF go-to weapon.
Great system(s) are turned to crap because of that BB
Stupid effing law

At least with the rifles(AK/AR/FAL/etc.) you can have a featureless configuration.

[mif_slim]

...I'd never buy a revolver, and I personally strongly dislike the cons (ergonomics, low capacity), but I'd rather have a revolver than nothing, and I'd never imply that choosing a revolver is laughable.

Actually a autoloader has its flaws too. Hand to hand and a autoloader will not be able to fire again if the intruder grabs a hold of the slide (We trained to grab the slide and the first round will fire but itll cause fte rendering it useless until its racked again). But at a distance that is not H2H, autoloader for me too!

[hcbr]

LOL loving this thread KSG vs Saiga 12 haha FLAME SUIT ACTIVATE!

[mif_slim]

^ looks like your hands will be caught on fire easily. Lol

[SofaGeorge]

When someone says "after the panic buying prices are coming down" on the Saiga 12... what are they coming down to? Last one I saw was $1250. At that price I'd rather get an M4 Benelli.

[chaseface]

When someone says "after the panic buying prices are coming down" on the Saiga 12... what are they coming down to? Last one I saw was $1250. At that price I'd rather get an M4 Benelli.

They were never averaging $1250 for an unconverted Saiga. They are now back down to about $700 for a while they were up around $850. The places that charged any more than that were just a-holes ripping off their customers. A couple years ago they were in the 400ish range but I highly doubt that we will ever see that price again.