Kel-Tec KSG vs Saiga 12

[AragornElessar86]

One concern I would have is that a bad person(s) might judge that thing to be a airsoft or maybe some sort of Nerf(tm) gun and they might either ignore you or immediately fire on you.

Sucks to be them.

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[louderthangod]

I've been considering getting a shotgun lately (currently leaning towards a 590a1) as well as having just moved to a new house. The hallway from the bedroom is narrow and has a sharp turn into the kitchen area and it has me concerned the extended length of the shotgun (I'm sure there's a fancy term for the distance the gun sticks out from your body). The KSG seems like it would be good for tight hallways. I'd worry about sticking a giant shotgun barrel out down the hall and having an intruder grab it.

[GettoPhilosopher]

I've been considering getting a shotgun lately (currently leaning towards a 590a1) as well as having just moved to a new house. The hallway from the bedroom is narrow and has a sharp turn into the kitchen area and it has me concerned the extended length of the shotgun (I'm sure there's a fancy term for the distance the gun sticks out from your body). The KSG seems like it would be good for tight hallways. I'd worry about sticking a giant shotgun barrel out down the hall and having an intruder grab it.

Get what's comfortable for you and what works. If you're going to get a pump, get an 18" barrel and the shortest stock you can comfortably use. If you have to pie a corner, back against the wall, and possibly undersling it just to get around the corner.

That being said, the real answer is "You're not supposed to try and clear your house by yourself, it's suicide". Barricade yourself in the bedroom, yell "I'm armed and have called the police!". (unless you have kids down the hall you have to protect, etc).

[jamesob]

One concern I would have is that a bad person(s) might judge that thing to be a airsoft or maybe some sort of Nerf(tm) gun and they might either ignore you or immediately fire on you.

when they are dead, then they can decide if it was a nerf or airsoft.

[1lostinspace]

I would never trust my life to any Keltec Saiga all the way

[1lostinspace]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUe4NWiOq5A

[ivsamhell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUe4NWiOq5A

thats no out of the box gun.

[AragornElessar86]

when they are dead, then they can decide if it was a nerf or airsoft.

THIS

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[Excelsior]

when they are dead, then they can decide if it was a nerf or airsoft.

Unless they fire first and hit home...

[Merc1138]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUe4NWiOq5A

So to show what you think is the superiority of the saiga, you post a link to a video of an aftermarket modified saiga 12, specifically modified for "reliability" according to the guy in the video.

This tells me that a saiga 12 is NOT reliable and apparently requires modifications out of the box just to be able to perform a 20 round mag dump.

Your point is not any different than if someone modified a KSG to be reliable(this is of course assuming it's not reliable out of the box, and no one knows if this is the case yet) and then made a video about it.

Then there's also the 20 round drum mags for the saiga 12 that you can't get here in CA without being a cop, the magazine lock you're stuck with on the saiga 12(and you can't just tie a tool to a lanyard attached to the trigger guard), and the freakishly long 10 round box magazine. I wouldn't trust my life with a saiga 12(or any mag locked gun for that matter) at all in California. Outside of this state saiga 12's are awesome, with the laws in this state hell no.

[GettoPhilosopher]

So to show what you think is the superiority of the saiga, you post a link to a video of an aftermarket modified saiga 12, specifically modified for "reliability" according to the guy in the video.

This tells me that a saiga 12 is NOT reliable and apparently requires modifications out of the box just to be able to perform a 20 round mag dump.

Your point is not any different than if someone modified a KSG to be reliable(this is of course assuming it's not reliable out of the box, and no one knows if this is the case yet) and then made a video about it.

Then there's also the 20 round drum mags for the saiga 12 that you can't get here in CA without being a cop, the magazine lock you're stuck with on the saiga 12(and you can't just tie a tool to a lanyard attached to the trigger guard), and the freakishly long 10 round box magazine. I wouldn't trust my life with a saiga 12(or any mag locked gun for that matter) at all in California. Outside of this state saiga 12's are awesome, with the laws in this state hell no.

That's a hell of a lot of assumptions based on one posted youtube video.

No modifications (except a normal conversion kit), I was able to dump something like 130 rds of buckshot and slugs in 3 hours just fine. It also fired Federal bulk pack birdshot just fine as well.

Oh, but you saw a youtube video. Nevermind, I stand corrected. :P

The mag doesn't get in the way. You can always get a 10rd drum if you prefer. And honestly, I really doubt I'll be needing more than 10rds of buckshot to stop a burglar...and if I ever did, my wife would be behind me handing me the featureless AR. Do you guys really expect to be clearing your house in the middle of the night in your underwear while also carrying extra mags/shotshells? Do you really expect to be reloading from a sidesaddle in a HD situation? I mean, I'm all for having the best tools you can have, but I don't expect to have my house broken in by the entire cast of West Side Story.

To say you wouldn't trust your life to a reliable semi-auto shotgun with a 10rd capacity for normal applications (i.e. you're not clearing houses in Iraq) seems utterly ridiculous. I'm fine with differing opinions and styles; if you prefer a different system, no problem. But can we move away from this juvenile "anything but my preferred weapon is worthless" talk?

[Merc1138]

That's a hell of a lot of assumptions based on one posted youtube video.

No modifications (except a normal conversion kit), I was able to dump something like 130 rds of buckshot and slugs in 3 hours just fine. It also fired Federal bulk pack birdshot just fine as well.

Oh, but you saw a youtube video. Nevermind, I stand corrected. :P

The mag doesn't get in the way. You can always get a 10rd drum if you prefer. And honestly, I really doubt I'll be needing more than 10rds of buckshot to stop a burglar...and if I ever did, my wife would be behind me handing me the featureless AR. Do you guys really expect to be clearing your house in the middle of the night in your underwear while also carrying extra mags/shotshells? Do you really expect to be reloading from a sidesaddle in a HD situation? I mean, I'm all for having the best tools you can have, but I don't expect to have my house broken in by the entire cast of West Side Story.

To say you wouldn't trust your life to a reliable semi-auto shotgun with a 10rd capacity for normal applications (i.e. you're not clearing houses in Iraq) seems utterly ridiculous. I'm fine with differing opinions and styles; if you prefer a different system, no problem. But can we move away from this juvenile "anything but my preferred weapon is worthless" talk?

I made no assumptions about tge reliability of the saiga. Try actually reading what has been posted and what I replied to. Someone claimed the saiga was more reliable than the ksg(and no one knows anything about it's reliability yet) and then posted a video about the saiga where the guy shooting it mentioned that it was modified for reliability(which would be pointless if the thing was reliable out of the box).

You seem to be assuming that a jam will never occur. Have fun clearing a jam in a saiga with no BB tool unless you're assuming that you will always remember to grab your BB tool(that can't be attached with a tether to the gun) when you pick it up at 3 in the morning when you hear a noise.

I'm not saying the ksg is awesome since doing so would be silly considering no one has a production version yet, however the fanboy-ism over the saiga with a mag lock in this state is laughable. Equally silly is making a goofy comment about me slamming something that isn't my preferred weapon system is in itself juvenile since I never posted anything about my preferred weapon system other than it would be something without a mag lock. Even stranger is your complaining about my criticism of the saiga 12 even though I indicated that outside of CA's stupid mag lock restriction that the saiga would be great. Typical fanboy response to freak out when something is criticized but not bothering to notice the basis for the criticism.

[ivsamhell]

That's a hell of a lot of assumptions based on one posted youtube video.

No modifications (except a normal conversion kit), I was able to dump something like 130 rds of buckshot and slugs in 3 hours just fine. It also fired Federal bulk pack birdshot just fine as well.

Oh, but you saw a youtube video. Nevermind, I stand corrected. :P

The mag doesn't get in the way. You can always get a 10rd drum if you prefer. And honestly, I really doubt I'll be needing more than 10rds of buckshot to stop a burglar...and if I ever did, my wife would be behind me handing me the featureless AR. Do you guys really expect to be clearing your house in the middle of the night in your underwear while also carrying extra mags/shotshells? Do you really expect to be reloading from a sidesaddle in a HD situation? I mean, I'm all for having the best tools you can have, but I don't expect to have my house broken in by the entire cast of West Side Story.

To say you wouldn't trust your life to a reliable semi-auto shotgun with a 10rd capacity for normal applications (i.e. you're not clearing houses in Iraq) seems utterly ridiculous. I'm fine with differing opinions and styles; if you prefer a different system, no problem. But can we move away from this juvenile "anything but my preferred weapon is worthless" talk?

this thread wasn't asking about a home defense weapon.

[GettoPhilosopher]

this thread wasn't asking about a home defense weapon.

Sorry, I stand corrected. "Bad @$$ SHTF weapon".

As to the previous poster, I stand by what I said. Saying you'd never bet your life on a S12 is over the top laughable. I have no problem whatsoever with you preferring other platforms (I never said which platform you preferred, merely that it's apparently not a maglocked S12), but you make it sound useless--that is all I object to.

Firearms are tools. There are very different types of tools, with different pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses. I'm no fanboy, I merely feel the Saiga is a viable tool with strengths that balance out its weaknesses. I know plenty of people who prefer a pump, or a handgun, or even a rifle, and that's great. I doubt I'd be able to fumble with loose shells I'm the dark anyways, so I don't mind the maglock and value the pros (semi, handy, pointable, high capacity, personally preferable ergonomics) enough to choose it as one of my primaries. Your choices may be very different than mine. But I'd never call pump/revolver/handgun/EBR/etc users "laughable fanboys" or juvenile, nor would I claim I'd never trust my life to XXX. I'll take anything--even a crappy .22 bolt action--over a rock anyday.

Get what I mean? I'd never buy a revolver, and I personally strongly dislike the cons (ergonomics, low capacity), but I'd rather have a revolver than nothing, and I'd never imply that choosing a revolver is laughable.

(edit: another thing worth mentioning is I was unclear on one point in my first post. I wasn't trying to say you were being juvenile personally, but that the "anything other than XXX is worthless" mantra that seems to creep up on Calguns is juvenile, whether that's "all ARs are worthless", "all maglocked weapons are useless", "anything smaller than 7.62 is worthless", or the "anything less than Noveske/KAC/LWRCI/LMT/whoever is useless" crowds. I'm a fan of moving away from those mindsets period, no matter how minor they may be. My apologies for that unclear comment and the accusation it must have sounded like.)

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[Merc1138]

I never said a mag locked weapon in general is useless(well, I'll explain why I think they suck in a moment for anything other than sitting at a bench). I was clearly referring to the saiga 12. I'm not sure why you're defending the saiga 12 the way you are, considering that my biggest complaint with the platform is the crappy CA laws surrounding it.

You're correct that it would likely be just as crappy to be fumbling with loose shells in the dark as it would a tool to unlock the mag. However it's going to be a hell of a lot easier to grab shells to fumble around with in the dark, than it is the tool to unlock the magazine since it can't be conveniently tethered to the shotgun.

Whether you want to admit it or not, your defensive attitude about someone's criticism of CA laws and their application to the shotgun is a perfect example of being a fanboy. You didn't bother to notice that my problem with the shotgun was the crappy CA laws, and simply got defensive and replied because someone complained about the saiga 12 while ignoring the very clear point made that the biggest problem is the crappy mag lock. The mag lock which defeats the purpose of having a shotgun with a detachable magazine in the first place, no matter what design is used(ak types like the saiga, AR style models, hell even the AA12). You've also still ignored the realistic issue of clearing a jam that may occur when using a mag locked weapon. It sucks.

Based off of my own personal experience shooting in a timed scenario I eventually wound up ditching my mag locked AR and switched to my .22lr rifle because a simple magazine change in broad daylight with only a moderate amount of stress was a time wasting fumbling mess. No way in hell would I ever grab a mag locked weapon in any situation that I might have some adrenaline flowing(brightly lit or in the dark) and want to fumble with a stupid magazine lock(which pocket is my tool in, did I drop the tool, did I even remember to pick up the tool when I grabbed the gun and magazines since I can't keep it tethered to the gun, am I using the correct end of the tool, etc.). Eventually I figured that if I did have a failure in my AR it would pretty much end up being a club, same with the saiga 12.

I've handled a saiga 12 at a gun shop, the short stock was annoying for me but that's something I can change. The crappy CA law requiring the mag lock I cannot change. If I were outside of CA I'd have one for sure, but with these laws it's crap unless I could at least somehow manage to register one as an AW(not going to happen any time soon).

In my personal order of preference: saiga 12 > pump or semiauto tube fed shotgun > mag-locked saiga 12.

Yes the saiga 12 could be a great tool, outside of California.