disarms

[MossbergMan]

The crummy thing is you can't "man-handle" an air-soft like a real gun. I have some I use for Force on Force training and you get two guys fighting over it and the crunch you hear will be the $150 of training equipment being rendered useless.
And unless you "Red-Man" up for full power strikes there's always an element of holding back (no one wants to really destroy a training partner) although Krav gets pretty darn close.
It's a pretty crappy place to be (held at gun point) and shooting your assailant, although the "cleanest" technique, just may not be an option. Besides, how ironic to use the bastard's own weapon against him/her (even if it's as a club). We all have different levels of abilities and limitations to deal with so we must tailor our responses to what we can actually do and the only way to find out is to train. I'm a klutz open handed. What I use is cave man simple with as little foot work as possible because I know my limitations and I am no Jackie Chan or even Steven Segal.

[inbox485]

Even if you use a real firearm, you will tend to break them. Usually the only part of the technique you need an airsoft mockup for is the beginning to see if you are clearing the line of attack within the other persons reaction time (this is where about 75% of techniques fail). If you EVER cross the barrel line later in the technique it is a failure anyway (this is where the other 25% fail) and there is no reason to even practice it once. The rest of the technique, and the bulk of practice should be done with an ASP mock up.

Oh and I've yet to see anything from Krav that wasn't garbage. Some people swear there are variants that are decent, but I've yet to see one. Their weapons disarms they like to post all over youtube are some of the most bone headed crap I've ever seen. It might work for getting grunts to do something ineligible in squad tactics, but it is a gimmick of a martial art.

[MossbergMan]

All the Krav techniques I've seen are too complicated, for me. Like I said I need "caveman" easy. Push/Pull techniques, no complex motor skills that may or may not be available at the moment of truth.
The air-softs are the "proof in the pudding" if you are getting off line or not. Nothing says your technique is flawed like putting it to a force on force test and getting shot, for sure.

[SparrowHanger]

Who is stupid enough to put a muzzle in your back?

[inbox485]

Who is stupid enough to put a muzzle in your back?

Somebody who wants you to walk in a certain direction and you are hesitating would be a fine example. Somebody who is trying to be intimidating would be another. There is a lot of psychology that goes into a disarm. It isn't just a technique. Obviously if security is the other guy's priority they will hold you at gun point from about 15 feet away (BTDT). Lucky for you that often isn't practical and you are not always the target to begin with (again BTDT).

[inbox485]

All the Krav techniques I've seen are too complicated, for me. Like I said I need "caveman" easy. Push/Pull techniques, no complex motor skills that may or may not be available at the moment of truth.
The air-softs are the "proof in the pudding" if you are getting off line or not. Nothing says your technique is flawed like putting it to a force on force test and getting shot, for sure.

The MCMAP techniques are about the only widely known ones that are any good.

[Mercureality]

Yet 99% of the crap out there fails the airsoft test...

*shrug* The stuff I've learned hasn't. The techniques are all extremely simple - that's the guiding principle of KM. No technique (from any system) is a catch all, and none can be applicable to every situation.

Just stay away from anything labeled 'commando krav maga'. It's dressed up judo, and it's trash.

Oh and I've yet to see anything from Krav that wasn't garbage. Some people swear there are variants that are decent, but I've yet to see one. Their weapons disarms they like to post all over youtube are some of the most bone headed crap I've ever seen. It might work for getting grunts to do something ineligible in squad tactics, but it is a gimmick of a martial art.

Respectfully, may I ask what qualifies you to call it a gimmick? Have you trained in it at all, and if so, where? If not, what are you basing this opinion on? Youtube vids?

[Dave870]

Okay well it has been covered much but in terms of the weapons disarms the KM techniques I learned are not as effective as I would like them to be. When I took some CQB classes my buddy attempted to do a disarm on me (with a red gun and KM techniques) and he ended up judo throwing me but I still had my weapon in hand so even when applying technique properly it doesn't work 100% of the time. My advice in situations where you do need to preform a disarm as a force option there are three prinicpals that can help you stay alive:

1) Get out of the line of fire
2) Control the line of fire
3) Go on the Offensive

Steps 1 and 2 are self explanitory but step three is where the application of propper force options comes into play. For me in step three my knife or gun comes out and the bad guy gets taken out at that point. But in the event that I do not have my weapon then disarm technique comes into play. Now going back to my example when my buddy was attempting to disarm me he made sure that steps 1 and 2 were followed because the muzzle of my weapon was never on him so when he got me on the ground he was able to go for his weapon and finish me, dispite the fact I still had my weapon.

Also KM is a good martial art, the weapons techniques may not be the best but the hand to hand combat and knife on knife stuff is pretty good. I have had to use my hand to hand combat skills before in a sticky situation and I am glad I learned Krav because it allowed me to keep cool and end the fight quickly and safely (for me).

[Mercureality]

When I took some CQB classes my buddy attempted to do a disarm on me (with a red gun and KM techniques) and he ended up judo throwing me but I still had my weapon in hand so even when applying technique properly it doesn't work 100% of the time.

Edit: First, no system is perfect and no one technique is a catch all that will work in all scenarios. That said:

If your buddy had applied the techniques properly, you would not have been able to retain your grip on the weapon. Simple physics prevents it. The fact that he ended up somehow judo throwing you instead of acquiring the weapon, leads me to believe that was not employing the same techniques I've learned, which are very simple and leverage based, combined with hard aggression. I can't even imagine how that would occur. If he executed a proper disarm and combatives against you, and did not end up in possession of the weapon, he failed.

I refer back to my remarks about commando krav maga, which I feel has tarnished the name of the system all over.

[Dave870]

Edit: First, no system is perfect and no one technique is a catch all that will work in all scenarios. That said:

If your buddy had applied the techniques properly, you would not have been able to retain your grip on the weapon. Simple physics prevents it. The fact that he ended up somehow judo throwing you instead of acquiring the weapon, leads me to believe that was not employing the same techniques I've learned, which are very simple and leverage based, combined with hard aggression. I can't even imagine how that would occur. If he executed a proper disarm and combatives against you, and did not end up in possession of the weapon, he failed.

I refer back to my remarks about commando krav maga, which I feel has tarnished the name of the system all over.

Well chances are we didn't learn the same disarm techniques, maybe if he had tried the one you're talking about he probably would have been successful (our technique is a a little difficult to describe but it did involve a compicated manuver). The hand to hand and knife techniques I learned were great, but the gun disarm techniques we learned were just not that effective IMO.

[Mercureality]

Well chances are we didn't learn the same disarm techniques, maybe if he had tried the one you're talking about he probably would have been successful (our technique is a a little difficult to describe but it did involve a compicated manuver). The hand to hand and knife techniques I learned were great, but the gun disarm techniques we learned were just not that effective IMO.

Sorry, I probably came off as more than a little presumptuous. I don't know which technique you guys used, and they are difficult to describe in text. For all I know, it was a totally legit technique and some weird things happened. I wasn't there, it's not my place to pass judgment.

[gobi fish]

It may all come down to hand to hand and although handgun disarms can be accomplished with T&P to develop experience, has anyone ever done shotgun disarms. I ask because the balance points are quite different between the two and, other than in the movies, I haven't really seen an effective technique that gets their finger off the trigger. The other concern is full stock disarms vs pistol grip. Either way you have to get in closer to the BG than with a pistol disarm and a full stock gives the BG an advantage over the pistol grip when it come to weapon retention. What are your experiences with this?

its halarious to think anyone here has any type of experience with fighting a guy with a shotgun hand to hand in real life!

[inbox485]

*shrug* The stuff I've learned hasn't. The techniques are all extremely simple - that's the guiding principle of KM. No technique (from any system) is a catch all, and none can be applicable to every situation.

Just stay away from anything labeled 'commando krav maga'. It's dressed up judo, and it's trash.



Respectfully, may I ask what qualifies you to call it a gimmick? Have you trained in it at all, and if so, where? If not, what are you basing this opinion on? Youtube vids?

Like I said, some people swear there are variants that work and since I haven't seen them all, I'll happily concede the possibility. No, I've never trained in KM, and unless I were to see something other than the endless garbage that shows up on YT, or in demo documentaries etc, I doubt I'd have any interest in seeking it. If I had a local invite, I'd humor it respectfully, but my expectations wouldn't be high. I've seen stuff labeled as CKM, and yes it was laughable at best. The stuff labeled simply as KM seemed better, but it was still a grunt style system suited for people that have 2 months to learn something to be better than useless.

If what you learned passed an airsoft reality check, then have at it. I have a feeling that this thread is spiraling into a pissing match, so that is where I sign out as I haven't a rain coat handy.

One last thought, is aside from being mugged by an amateur or taken hostage, the much more probable time a disarm will actually be usable is saving somebody else. I've done two actual disarms, and neither were to save my own keester. Here is a well known example of a handgun disarm as it is most likely to occur in real life:

[USMC 82-86]

Krav Maga does have real world applications. I trained in the Marine's in hand to hand and you could take that as far as you wanted to take your training. I also studied Ryu Kyu Kempo. Both were effective arts no nonsense defense and offensive attacks. The Krav Maga disarms were very effective as well.

[gdog]

its halarious to think anyone here has any type of experience with fighting a guy with a shotgun hand to hand in real life!

Do you mean members of Calguns? Or just in everyone in general? Not knowing every single member here, or their LE experiences, I wouldn't make the assumption, (because that will just leave you and umption) but in a 1 on 1 situation with no immediate back up some guys do try to take control of your weapon in desperation. That's a fact. My question wasn't about wanting to know someone's field experience but their training experiences. In knowing what to do, you also learn what to expect and the key, as with anything, is training for the unexpected. I want to thank everyone for their input on this.