Can birdshots kill humans effectively?

[1911su16b870]

Remington or Winchester LE low recoil 00 buck.

[AJAX22]

I don't know about that... with it's shorter length, reduced recoil, increased accuracy, and the ability for quicker follow up shots (just pull the trigger again, as opposed to having to rack another round and fire), I might have to go with the SMG, especially if you were engaging multiple assailants (I mean there's a reason why swat teams aren't all armed with 870's right?)

No... they're carrying the SMG's because they don't make the remmy 11 semi auto any more

Bonnie parker had her pick of Thompson SMG's, BAR's, full auto converted 1911 pistols in 38 super.. and she picked a 20 inch barreled semi auto 20 gauge Remmy 11 stuffed with buckshot and chopped down to a whippet gun.

pay attention to what well funded crooks use, its usually the best economy, and most effective for a specific application

[aplinker]

I don't know about that... with it's shorter length, reduced recoil, increased accuracy, and the ability for quicker follow up shots (just pull the trigger again, as opposed to having to rack another round and fire), I might have to go with the SMG, especially if you were engaging multiple assailants (I mean there's a reason why swat teams aren't all armed with 870's right?)

Yes, because they want to engage without collateral. Can't shoot a hostile next to a friendly with 00, unless the friendly is someone you dislike.

That and you can reload more.

[M. Sage]

Yes, because they want to engage without collateral. Can't shoot a hostile next to a friendly with 00, unless the friendly is someone you dislike.

That and you can reload more.

Exactly, they have to worry about hostage situations. For a military application, a FA SMG is better for giving covering fire... God help you if you're in a situation where you need to suppress with an SMG, though.

Check out the shotgun's effectiveness in WWI. The trench guns were loaded with plated buckshot (which negated the Hauge Convention argument against expanding ammunition). The Germans are still angry about it.

I'd suggest shooting to kill since justifiably shooting somebody is really a all or nothing kind of deal and the only reason you should be shooting in the first place is if somebody's life was in danger. Imagine the the lawsuit that would follow if that first round scared him away but also injured him only.

I agree, except shoot to STOP, not kill. That being the case, a dead BG is a stopped BG, but I wouldn't trust birdshot to stop someone. There are drugs you need to worry about, and some people respond to pain with rage.

Getting shot with birdshot is going to hurt, but unless you have a perfect shot, it's not going to incapacitate (stop) the threat.

[VAHEVAHE]

Exactly, they have to worry about hostage situations. For a military application, a FA SMG is better for giving covering fire... God help you if you're in a situation where you need to suppress with an SMG, though.

Check out the shotgun's effectiveness in WWI. The trench guns were loaded with plated buckshot (which negated the Hauge Convention argument against expanding ammunition). The Germans are still angry about it.



I agree, except shoot to STOP, not kill. That being the case, a dead BG is a stopped BG, but I wouldn't trust birdshot to stop someone. There are drugs you need to worry about, and some people respond to pain with rage.

Getting shot with birdshot is going to hurt, but unless you have a perfect shot, it's not going to incapacitate (stop) the threat.

Thats why you follow up with a bayonetting , and no people i am not BORAT

[mcubed4130]

Hey all...I have a mossberg 500 for home defense. The fellas at Turner's sold me 75 rounds of birdshots for home defense (7 and a half). They swear by it. I went to the range, and these pellets are small! Can they effectively kill an intruder if it were to come to that? They claim that 00 bucks will over penetrate the walls and neighbors...I live in a single family detached, and find it hard to believe that it would penetrate my walls to the exterior and repentrate my neighbors to the interior...Any thoughts?

Nice choice in guns. Not much people here haven't already said...

Myself I load with 00 buck - 9 balls of 9mm is correct (about a 2" pattern at inside home ranges) - for 1 hit 1 stopped BG. However, I also have a carrier with 3 more 00 buck, and 2 more 1oz rifled slugs. I will switch to slugs for non-inside of home shots and/or longer range hostage shots.

The URL in this thread that was presented earlier to Box O Truth is good... just make sure you read this part:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

... A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.
...
"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"...

Also in my case, I have a 120+ lb, great dane in the house. If some BG, is crazy enough to brave my dog... and keep coming... which is the only real reason I'd be shooting some idiot... I have no confidence in anything less than #00 buck... because I'll assume the BG is nuts or on serious drugs or both.

-M3

[fireblast713]

How much did you pay for the Mossy 500?

[mcubed4130]

How much did you pay for the Mossy 500?

hehe, wow that's a really MAD looking graphic... regardless, I got mine for $205 w/18.5" smooth barrel, and a 28" vr imp chocked barrel.

Watch the Big 5 sales.

-M3

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Getting ready for something?

Now he has to shop smart. S*Mart.

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

Considering Cheney blasted his 80+ year old buddy in the head with no serious damage, I'm going to say it's probably better to use buckshot.

This about sums things up!

[slick_711]

I will switch to slugs for non-inside of home shots and/or longer range hostage shots.

Como que what? I've done plenty of training (both military & civilian classes & personal) with my shotgun, and it's got decent ghost ring sights on it... and hell, I place slugs well, even consistently hitting steel out @ 100 yards. That said, the last thing I want to do is take "hostage" shots with a shotgun. And you said a 18.5" Mossy w/ a bead sight?

By all means load slugs, my HD gun has a couple slugs in the tube and a couple more in the side saddle, but they're for zombies & baddies in body armor (or sometimes you just want to put an inch wide hole in a b****) and all those other theoretical situations we'll hopefully never encounter. If theres a hostage situation I'll take 5 seconds to set down the shotgun and pick up my AR.

[Pont]

Maybe he meant shooting through the hostage

[fireblast713]

Maybe he meant shooting through the hostage

If he'll do that to a hostage imagine what he'll do to the BG...

[slick_711]

If he'll do that to a hostage imagine what he'll do to the BG...

I got a procedural and time tacked onto my score at the last IDPA match for shooting a hostage through the collarbone area to put a round directly perfect centermass on the BG target behind it. The scorer didn't like my "its a soft tissue hit for a clean kill" argument.

A 1oz. lead slug is a different matter though. Its a very doable shot, even with a bead sight, and I'd do it all day at the range, just not one I'd want to have to take with a shotgun in a real life scenario.

[aplinker]

I got a procedural and time tacked onto my score at the last IDPA match for shooting a hostage through the collarbone area to put a round directly perfect centermass on the BG target behind it. The scorer didn't like my "its a soft tissue hit for a clean kill" argument.

A 1oz. lead slug is a different matter though. Its a very doable shot, even with a bead sight, and I'd do it all day at the range, just not one I'd want to have to take with a shotgun in a real life scenario.

Well now I know... If I'm held hostage in front of a bad guy while you're holding a shotgun and seriously considering taking a shot, I'm gonna help him shoot you before I give you a chance to shoot him. Odds are I'm gettin shot either way so I'm takin you with me.

On a side note, you should take that bird shot out and shoot some clays. You'll love it.