is it a fact that pumps are more reliable?

[Saym14]

I have had a pump jam. and heard of others jam. any mechanical shotgun can jam. it seems modern semi-auto's like the 1100, 930 and m4 are pretty reliable. plus with a pump you introduce human error which can flare up even in trained people when the SHTF. Since most of my guns are semi it more natural for me (and thus more reliable) to shoot a semi shotgun.

thoughts?
facts?
opinions?

[BigDogatPlay]

Reliable is a wide open subject, and one that is heavily weighted by varying conditions. You are most comfortable, personally, with a semi because you shoot that the most. Familiarity means a great deal.

Having said that, serious fighting shotguns are (generally) pumps. Some LEA and .mil have been working semi's into the inventory for a number of years, but the overwhelming majority are still using pumps. And for a number of very good reasons.

Some more of my thoughts on pump vs. semi for defense are here,

[gh429]

My M4 doesn't like light loads and sometimes fails to cycle on lighter loads whereas my 870 and Beretta don't have any issues (obviously). However in a defensive / offensive situation I would still take the M4 assuming I have some heavier rounds.

[rudeboy3]

^^Thats exactly what I do. I would grab my semi auto over my express anyday, which is why I always have tons of hotter loads laying around. Kinda sad it doesnt take light loads for the range but it has been fine with the heavier loads.

[CDMJ]

Bigdog pretty much answered the question about as accurately as one can anwser such a question. To expand on his anwser tough. Pumps can fail but typically when they do it involves one of two systems. The most common system to fail is the follower getting jammed in the magazine tube. This is mostly an issue if you are running a two piece extended magazine tube. The second most common system to fail is a broken extractor. However this is pretty rare. The rule of thumb typically has always been and does apply here the more complex a system is the more likely it is to fail since it requires a lot more maintenance.

GH429, how many rounds do you have though your M4? I have a little over nine hundred with four hundred of those being bird shot. My M4 seems to cycle the light stuff just fine. I am not sure if this is because I have broken my gun in fully or what, but I have very few FTFs with my M4.

[not-fishing]

My double barrel always works.

If the trigger ever breaks on one barrel I have another as backup.

Unfortunately, I've been known to exhibit signs of ADD Automatic Double Delivery.

Sorry, both barrels at once- my bad

[aippi]

Hands down any time any way you look at it pump shotguns are more reliable then semi-autos. I will not stake my life on an auto. I have a fine 11-87P that I love to shoot but it lives in my safe. My 870's serve duty for protecting me and mine.

Human error can occur with anything and can occur with an auto even more then a pump. Gas autos have to be fired from a solid shouldered position or they will not feed, just like limp wristing a semi auto pistol. So you don't shoulder it correctly then that is human error. You shoot your auto on the range, perfect solid stance and it goes boom. Man in a gun fight you don't get perfect stances and may have to fire in movement and will not be in your perfect range stance and that thing is going to cycle.

I have not seen it but have heard of LE Agnecies finding out that inerta operated autos need the movement of the shotgun to cycle. They discovered that a 230 pound corn bread fed LEO in full body armor, tactical gear and his other weapons, leans into one of these and there is a cycle issue. Any input on this issue would be of interest to me as I don't know this for a fact.

The auto is more supceptable to being dirty. Don't keep one clean and you find this out, thus human error. You are also adding more springs into this as the action spring takes a pounding and you will not realise it is getting weak till it fails to cycle the next round. When this happens will it be in a fight, you never know do you? Start talking about barrel seals and pistons and all the additional spring and you can not possiblely say you would rather trust you like to one of these weapons over a pump. Well you can, but that just shows me you don't understand how the weapons operate or don't care, it has to be one or the other.

Here is a hint. More parts, more opportunity for failure. Think about that.

Also, every semi auto no matter what the operating system is requires the round being fired to cycle it. So, you now not only stake your life on the weapon, you stake it on the ammo. After the mess they put out here in the last year or so I would not risk that. If you are shooting a pump and the lead clears the barrel you are good to go and rack the next one in. If a round is just a few grains short it can cause your semi auto not to cycle. Do you want to risk you life on that. I don't.

If you rack a pump hard after every shot every time you fire it wether on the range, shooting bunnies or birds you will instinctively do it. That means you don't think about it. I have never short stroked a pump and that is the only error you can make with it except the one you would make with any weapon, like yanking on the trigger and it won't go off because the safety is on. Or you faild to chamber a round.

If you are looking for an idiot proof weapon going to the more complicated operations of a semi-auto is not the answer. The pump is part of the answer, pull the trigger, rack it like you got a pair and it works every time. the other part serves for any weapon and that is trigger time.

[bjl333]

My double barrel always works.

If the trigger ever breaks on one barrel I have another as backup.

Unfortunately, I've been known to exhibit signs of ADD Automatic Double Delivery.

Sorry, both barrels at once- my bad

^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^

[Saym14]

The rule of thumb typically has always been and does apply here the more complex a system is the more likely it is to fail since it requires a lot more maintenance.
.

Here is a hint. More parts, more opportunity for failure. Think about that.

you two support my arguement. there are several thousand (or millions I am not a biologist) added parts to the equations or more...between your brain and your fingers. muscles, nerves, tendons, nerves, brain cells and back again. plus stress, emotion and adrelin.

[Cali-Shooter]

I don't have any semi-auto shotguns. I've had stages where I've almost bought a Benelli M1, a Mossberg 930 SPX, and a Benelli M3.

I am perfectly fine with my two pump action shotguns: an Ithaca 37 12 gauge, and a Mossberg 590a1 12 gauge. I don't need any semi-auto shotguns.

[Maestro Pistolero]

My Benelli M1 Super 90 has cycled everything I have ever fed it, including low recoil rounds. It cycle those slower, making a a ker-chunk sound cause the bolt was moving slow, but it always works.

[Saym14]

let me ask this- what do the pros shoot in thre-gun comp ?

[shrap]

I'd choose my semi over my pump gun, because I've shot 400+ rounds out of it in the the past few months - and less than 50 out of the pump gun.

I used to shoot skeet with a pump. Never had any trouble pumping fast enough to catch the doubles. But then I got a semi and stopped using the pump for a long time. I brought it out for old time's sake, and it was a disaster. Short stroked it, points funny, slide release was oddly confusing.

The most reliable gun is the one that you know how to use and shoot the most, be it a single shot, pump action, or semi-auto.

[Jpach]

I havent had a pump yet, but I have had a Benelli M4. Im still upset that I sold it. It never gave me problems and was 100% reliable.

Actually, the one time it gave me a problem was when I accidentally pressed the bolt release when my thumb was in the action.

Holy **** did that hurt.

[BigDogatPlay]

I have not seen it but have heard of LE Agnecies finding out that inerta operated autos need the movement of the shotgun to cycle. They discovered that a 230 pound corn bread fed LEO in full body armor, tactical gear and his other weapons, leans into one of these and there is a cycle issue. Any input on this issue would be of interest to me as I don't know this for a fact.

Interesting.... I had not heard that before. I'm going to have to ask around to some guys I know.

let me ask this- what do the pros shoot in thre-gun comp ?

Three gun competition is not a fight for one's life. And professionals are shooting tricked out race guns designed to shoot really fast and really soft under very controlled conditions. Apples to oranges comparison.