HD use; less lethal options

[inbox485]

Which is why it's even more important to make sure the threat is stopped after firing that first LL round. What's the point of using LL for "mistake forgiveness" if you're going to fire a live round at the guy as fast as you can cycle the action? If people want to use LL for home defense, that's perfectly fine; but they should do it right.

You wouldn't fire a second round as fast as you can cycle. You assess the effecacy as you regain the site picture just as you would if the first round was live. For all my dislikes of LL ammo, being able to see if it had effect before taking a second shot isn't one of them.

One point to consider. With my nerve/muscle condition, the time to cycle and re-acquire is not the fraction of a second that might be typical (2 or 3 times that). I feel it's long enough to evaluate a threat.

ric

That is actualy one of the big reasons not to use LL ammo. Somewhat related to previous quote, from everything I've heard and can relate to LL ammo, the difference between balling up into the fetal possition and not even flinching is either being drugged or mentally conditioned such that pain responses don't happen. So in that fraction of a second it takes to cycle, sight in, and feel the trigger reset, you will see one or the other. Now even if you are good with a long gun and there is a competition where you get two shots starting from the ready possition and I get a knife from 10 feet away and my goal is to get inside your muzzle radius and put that knife in your chest and put you down with it before you get the second shot off, I have a pretty good chance of doing it. If you have some physical limitation slowing you down, it is a no brainer. Point being if that first shot doesn't count, the second might not be an option.

[ZombieTactics]

I'd really like a clearer, more detailed explanation about the uber-goodness of using an LL round as first-in-tube.

So far, much of the explanations seem to be some combination of "I am an undisputed expert, don't question my authoritay", "it's completely obvious" and (conversely) "it's so secret/dangerous/risky that I can't discuss it in a public forum"

Certainly it can't be THAT difficult to explain, otherwise it's probably too complex to understand. I do have the "please teach me" mode engaged, but also the "BS filter" on full.

[aippi]

Inbox, as much as I would like to ignore you, I just can't. Must be some kind of flaw I have or it is the statements you keep making. You wouldn't fire a second round as fast as you can cycle? A statement from someone who has never used a weapon in any situation other then targets. So you are saying not to double TAP with a handgun? If you have full auto, don't use it? What the heck are you saying. Do you even think about what you say? You words and statement give you away and show your level of understanding about this entire topic.

Also, you are the guy on here making the biggest stink yet you have never even fired the rubber buckshot that we are talking about. How to I know that? Because there is no recoil dude. None what so ever, that shotgun will stay right on target like a semi-auto 22 rifle. So I can fire to clear that LL in a nano second and fire the lethal if the situation requires. Do you get that? Doesn't matter if you answer as I am not coming back to this thread as it is not worth my time. To many guys have called and agree and my earlier posting offer that as an option for anyone wanting my opinion.

As for the guy that wants a clear explanation. I really don't want to bother with explaining anything about tactical shotguns to a guy that talks about Zombies. You are not nor ever will be a client of mine. I don't even build the types of weapons that Zombie types would want. However, if one called I would treat him like a normal person and answer his questions. If he started talking about Zombies I would refer him to other builders for a shotgun. I have already explained that I am responsible for what I say verbally or in print. If I am speaking to the person I can ask questions to be sure he understands me. I can't do that when people just read it. Hundreds have read this thread already. I am in this business and have three million in liability insurance and I protect it to the best of my ability. If you have been in business or have never been in Law Enforcement facing frivolous law suits you will understand this. One nuisance suit and no one will insure you, then your business is over. I want the ability to say I only speak with people about this and I make sure they understand all the issues around it. Sad we have to think like this, sad we have to print disclaimers on everything but that is the real world. You don't want the reason I use this or you would call, you just want some mess to put on here.

This thread is for people who want options and want to know if this is one. That is what the OP asked. It has turned into an "Attack of the killer Clowns". The OP understands this topic and wants input, not your shoot them twice then once in the head mess. Not the kill them all and let God sort them out mess. He asked about a munition that would fit his need and this is one of them. So go away, go hunt some zombies, go to the Mall just stop the mess.

Start your own thread about idiots like me that use LL for the first round. Then if we get in it will be open season on us since we jumped in.

[sniper5]

The external barriers on your house (exterior lighting, alarms, locks, door construction, windows, rose bushes under windows, fences, razor wire topped 15 foot electrified chain link fence-OK, kidding) are your less than lethal defense. Violation of those barriers with people in the dwelling constitutes the intent to do serious harm. The threat is imminent and grave. Lethal force is the next appropriate level of response.

Although I doubt it is a personality trait shared by many on this forum, there are many people that just can't bring themselves to take life. For those individuals a Taser, baseball bat, pepper spray or whatever is a viable option, because they would be more likely to REACT, rather than hesitate.

[ZombieTactics]

That's an interesting sidestep, JD ... but a little light on the actual information. It's interesting that you leap to all sorts of conclusions about who I am and what I am about based upon little more than my screen name here and perhaps a glance at my YouTube videos. Even a cursory examination would reveal to you that I am not simply some addled fan of Zombie movies droning on with paranoid fantasies about some imminent outbreak of the undead ... except perhaps in jest and for a wider point.

If you are that "careful" about forming the rest of your opinions, perhaps we can all learn something here and just leave you alone in your own little, angry narrow world.

I'd much prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt you are so unwilling to give others, consider the possibility that there might be something that I can learn from you, and suspend the notion for the moment that you might just actually be the tired old blowhard with nothing really to say that you appear to be. Certainly that much is fair. You are certainly right about one thing ... not a customer ever. I can't imagine dealing with anyone so self-aggrandizing and displaying such unprofessional behavior in an open forum. So, you are 100% correct about one thing ... perhaps you are about other as well.

Now, several times you've intimated that you are in possession of some special knowledge that you have to impart ... based upon some really super-dee-dooper unquestionable awesomeness that only you seem to possess. Fair enough, but realize that you aren't the only one who has been around the block a few times.

Much of what you've said seems to be at odds of what recognized experts have offered. I've been to more than one briefing with a room chock full of LEO and legal-beagle types of the opinion that a citizen using any kind of specialty shotgun ammo in a self-defense situation could be in for a real inquisition. The major line of thought seems to be that it just makes you look too much like the guy planning-on/hoping-for/itching-at a fight, as opposed to some random schmo just caught up in unfortunate circumstances.

Do they have it wrong? Hell, I don't pretend to know for a fact. I'm just some idiot trying to figure this out with the rest of the gang. But I sure have seen a near 100% set of expert heads nodding in agreement on this notion, and yes, bean-bags and rubber rounds and tear gas and sorts of nifty things were mentioned in the mix.

Now, see ... I know you're awesome, ok? You keep pretty much telling us all that in one way or another, so who am I to doubt? I mean you've even got that website with the picture of you looking all super-combat-ready-don't-mess-with-me-cuz -I-have-beard-and-a-cammo-hat pose and everything. Surely that means you're a squared-away guy.

Call me a skeptic or whatever colorful names I'm sure you regularly pepper your speech with to make up for a basic lack of vocabulary ... I just like straight answers to straight questions. Some people are prone to wanting their information to contain some actual ... ummm ... information. Your drivel ... yes drivel ... about your insurance worries are simply a convenient dodge. You've already offered too much ... trying to back out now just looks lame. All sorts of store owners and other vendors offer their opinions about all sorts of things in this forum and others all the damned time .. what do they know that you don't? Maybe you just need a better insurance carrier.

You've been given ample opportunity to explain your reasoning, how about you pony up and do so? Or should we simply make reasonable conclusions about your inability to do so?

[rugershooter]

Inbox, as much as I would like to ignore you, I just can't. Must be some kind of flaw I have or it is the statements you keep making. You wouldn't fire a second round as fast as you can cycle? A statement from someone who has never used a weapon in any situation other then targets. So you are saying not to double TAP with a handgun? If you have full auto, don't use it? What the heck are you saying. Do you even think about what you say? You words and statement give you away and show your level of understanding about this entire topic.

Also, you are the guy on here making the biggest stink yet you have never even fired the rubber buckshot that we are talking about. How to I know that? Because there is no recoil dude. None what so ever, that shotgun will stay right on target like a semi-auto 22 rifle. So I can fire to clear that LL in a nano second and fire the lethal if the situation requires. Do you get that? Doesn't matter if you answer as I am not coming back to this thread as it is not worth my time. To many guys have called and agree and my earlier posting offer that as an option for anyone wanting my opinion.

As for the guy that wants a clear explanation. I really don't want to bother with explaining anything about tactical shotguns to a guy that talks about Zombies. You are not nor ever will be a client of mine. I don't even build the types of weapons that Zombie types would want. However, if one called I would treat him like a normal person and answer his questions. If he started talking about Zombies I would refer him to other builders for a shotgun. I have already explained that I am responsible for what I say verbally or in print. If I am speaking to the person I can ask questions to be sure he understands me. I can't do that when people just read it. Hundreds have read this thread already. I am in this business and have three million in liability insurance and I protect it to the best of my ability. If you have been in business or have never been in Law Enforcement facing frivolous law suits you will understand this. One nuisance suit and no one will insure you, then your business is over. I want the ability to say I only speak with people about this and I make sure they understand all the issues around it. Sad we have to think like this, sad we have to print disclaimers on everything but that is the real world. You don't want the reason I use this or you would call, you just want some mess to put on here.

This thread is for people who want options and want to know if this is one. That is what the OP asked. It has turned into an "Attack of the killer Clowns". The OP understands this topic and wants input, not your shoot them twice then once in the head mess. Not the kill them all and let God sort them out mess. He asked about a munition that would fit his need and this is one of them. So go away, go hunt some zombies, go to the Mall just stop the mess.

Start your own thread about idiots like me that use LL for the first round. Then if we get in it will be open season on us since we jumped in.

If you're not going to give reasons or explainations as to why we should use LL, why even bother posting on here in the first place? If you're worried about liablility, why bother posting her? You can't honestly expect us to believe you when the only explanations you give are essentially "it's too much liability for me to post on here, so call me". The OP wanted input on his idea of frontloading LL in his home defense gun. Yes, there have been stupid answers posted, but there have been plenty of intelligent, well thought out answers.

My opinion is that if you're going to frontload LL ammo because you want an extra layer of protection against accidentially shooting an innocent person, you have to take into consideration the time between shots. There's no point in using LL ammo for that reason if you're just going to send a lethal shot downrange as fast as you can. If the reason you're frontloading LL is for an extra layer of protection, I can understand that (even though I don't agree with it), but don't fool yourself into thinking that it's going to any good at all if you're going to fire a lethal round immediately after the LL. You need to assess the situation between the time you fire the LL and the time you fire the lethal rounds. If you only have lethal rounds loaded into the gun, it doesn't matter because I don't care that the BG is hurt, I'll keep shooting until he's no longer a threat. If you're frontloading LL, you do care about him getting hurt.

I also stated that I'd rather use only lethal rounds, not LL. There's a possibility that I may not be able to fire more than one round. My gun may malfunction, I might be disarmed, there might not be enough distance to shoot, etc. Whatever the reason, there is the definite possibility that I may only be able to fire one shot. That shot needs to count. I need to use ammunition that's effective, and LL is not as effective in a deadly force encounter as lethal ammo. No ammunition is 100% effective, but lethal ammo is more effective than LL, and if I might only have the chance to fire once, I'm going to use the more effective ammunition.

If you choose to use LL, that's perfectly fine. It's your life, your choices. But it's pretty pathetic that you come on here to tell people that they should use LL as a first shot, but refuse to answer on here why they should do so, and insist that they call you if they want an answer.

[inbox485]

Inbox, as much as I would like to ignore you, I just can't. Must be some kind of flaw I have or it is the statements you keep making. You wouldn't fire a second round as fast as you can cycle? A statement from someone who has never used a weapon in any situation other then targets.

Funny coming from the guy who is still mis-quoting me as saying that I'd double tap from a shotgun. Simple answer is that after firing a sighted shot from a shotgun, no I would not fire a second time without assessing the effect of the first shot. You are right about me never shooting at anything other than targets (at least not with real bullets), and I plan to keep it that way. So far you haven't been very forthcoming with questions, but just in case, if you advocate shooting a second shot as fast as you can cycle, why would you bother with the LL round to begin with? The only reason I can think of is to manipulate evidence for a jury. Is that the liability you are concerned with?

So you are saying not to double TAP with a handgun? If you have full auto, don't use it?

Whoa there. Maybe I stumbled into the wrong thread, but I'm pretty sure the topic is regarding pump shotguns. I'm not going to start on that mundane discussion of how many pellets are in a 12 ga round of 00 Buck, but I'm betting everybody here can agree it is quite a bit more than 2. If, after 8, 9, 12, 15, 18 or however many pellets you have in the round hit home, you don't get an effect, you might want to know why before wasting the time to rack and fire again.

What the heck are you saying. Do you even think about what you say? You words and statement give you away and show your level of understanding about this entire topic.

I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice, but your statements have been a circle of do so because I say so because I'm badder than all you and insults for anybody that calls you on it. You could presume that I don't have a lot of experience with odd specialty loads based on my statements, or you could just read where I've said as much before.

Also, you are the guy on here making the biggest stink yet you have never even fired the rubber buckshot that we are talking about. How to I know that?

Or because I've already said so.

Because there is no recoil dude. None what so ever, that shotgun will stay right on target like a semi-auto 22 rifle. So I can fire to clear that LL in a nano second and fire the lethal if the situation requires. Do you get that?

Interesting but irrelevant. I'm not some super athlete, but I'd have no trouble closing 10 feet faster than most people could dry fire a pump shotgun twice. As for the situation requiring a second shot, putting aside that you might have a knife in your chest first, I thought you were just questioning me for saying that I wouldn't just fire that second shot as fast as I could cycle.

As for the guy that wants a clear explanation. I really don't want to bother with explaining anything about tactical shotguns to a guy that talks about Zombies. You are not nor ever will be a client of mine. I don't even build the types of weapons that Zombie types would want. However, if one called I would treat him like a normal person and answer his questions. If he started talking about Zombies I would refer him to other builders for a shotgun. I have already explained that I am responsible for what I say verbally or in print. If I am speaking to the person I can ask questions to be sure he understands me. I can't do that when people just read it. Hundreds have read this thread already. I am in this business and have three million in liability insurance and I protect it to the best of my ability. If you have been in business or have never been in Law Enforcement facing frivolous law suits you will understand this. One nuisance suit and no one will insure you, then your business is over. I want the ability to say I only speak with people about this and I make sure they understand all the issues around it. Sad we have to think like this, sad we have to print disclaimers on everything but that is the real world. You don't want the reason I use this or you would call, you just want some mess to put on here.

This thread is for people who want options and want to know if this is one. That is what the OP asked. It has turned into an "Attack of the killer Clowns". The OP understands this topic and wants input, not your shoot them twice then once in the head mess. Not the kill them all and let God sort them out mess. He asked about a munition that would fit his need and this is one of them. So go away, go hunt some zombies, go to the Mall just stop the mess.

Start your own thread about idiots like me that use LL for the first round. Then if we get in it will be open season on us since we jumped in.

ZT and I haven't always seen eye to eye, but he has my unsolicited support on this one. You are WAY off base with those comments. Like ZT said, if that is how much thought you put into opinions, how can people take you at your word when you won't even begin to articulate the reasoning. I don't care if a source has personality issues if the logic lines up but there hasn't been any logic coming to support your conclusion.

The liability bit also doesn't add up. There are loads of lawyers here that make legal comments all the time with the simple disclaimer that the comment is made as an individual and not as a lawyer giving legal advice. Nobody can dig up a post like that and hope to sue them for giving bad legal advice. Seems like having people call you as a professional trainer and get one on one training advice is where the liability would actually start.

But hey. Nice meeting you.