why are SG's viewed as HD guns and rarely SHTF weapons?

[ersatz]

I wouldn't necessarily want as a sole firearm but it's great for clsoe quarters. Penetration is kinda poor though. While not the most intelligent thing to do shooting an empty dumpster at 12-15 yards with a 12 guage did not offer much penetration. I don't know if zombies are smart enough to take cover but they might be searching dumpsters for brains so you never know. Various scenarios exist in SHTF situations and some firearms are better suited. There's no best all firearm so at least it gives us an excuse to buy a number of them.

[dansgold]

the problem with it for me is, its not a force multiplier weapon like a autoloading mag fed centerfire. ...

Something tells me you don't understand the standard usage of the term "force mulitiplier".

In standard military terms, one reason a weapons system is considered a force multiplier if it is able to handle multiple roles, and therefore reduces the total loadout required for a soldier. Being that the SG can fire signal flares, non-lethal markers, tear gas mini-missles, fragmenting breacher rounds, slugs, various buckshot rounds and even (new, experimental) FRAG-12 rounds (3 varieties ... armor-piercing, high-explosive & timed-fragmenting) ... it's a force-multiplier to be certain.

I'd be interested why you consider a mag-fed, centerfire rifle to be an FM, since it's not typically defined as such.

[Untamed1972]

Did you intentionally say "clip" instead of "magazine"?
If you meant "magazine", and it's a semi-auto, it requires a maglock... now you're back to the same slow reloads that we face with a maglock equipped OLL type rifle.

I think it's funny that this always gets tossed into the SHTF debates. If the S truly HTF, mass social breakdown, lawlessness and so on......I'm pretty sure that all bets and bullet buttons will be off at that point and mag buttons and 30rd rebuild kits will be game on.

[Untamed1972]

Something tells me you don't understand the standard usage of the term "force mulitiplier".

In standard military terms, one reason a weapons system is considered a force multiplier if it is able to handle multiple roles, and therefore reduces the total loadout required for a soldier. Being that the SG can fire signal flares, non-lethal markers, tear gas mini-missles, fragmenting breacher rounds, slugs, various buckshot rounds and even (new, experimental) FRAG-12 rounds (3 varieties ... armor-piercing, high-explosive & timed-fragmenting) ... it's a force-multiplier to be certain.

I'd be interested why you consider a mag-fed, centerfire rifle to be an FM, since it's not typically defined as such.

I usally think of force multiplier more in terms of starting with hand to hand combat for example.....it's a straight 1-on-1 deal. Where moving up the chain, different weapons will enable a persons ability to engage multiple threats. So an increased rate of fire and greater long distance accuracy would increase the mutliplication factor for example, which is why an FA rifle would be considered more of a multiplier then an SA rifle would.

So I dont think it so much as multi-tasking, but as mulitple threat engagement. Yes a shotgun can do all the different tasks you mention, but not all at once. So match it against a semi-auto rifle and you're even as far as one shot per trigger pull. But then you factor in higher rate of fire, longer range accuracy, faster reloads, lighter weight ammo, all of those things would factor into the multiplication factor of a particular weapon.

And as stated, the SG does have an advantage for close in work, but I think it loses enough on the other aspects that if you had to choose only one the SG wouldn't be the top contender.

Think of it this way, compare a guy with a shotgun to a trained sniper with a bolt action rifle and a long range scope. Who has more force multiplication? The sniper can multiply his unaided human abilities with his tools (rifle & scope) to reach out and engage many targets at much longer distances at perhaps a lower rate of fire and cover a wider area. But if you're both in the same 10X10 room then the SG would have the advange.

Obviously certain weapons are going to excell in certain categories and not others, if you hafta choose only one though then it's balancing act of which ONE tool will excell the most in the most categories.

[Fot]

I think it's funny that this always gets tossed into the SHTF debates. If the S truly HTF, mass social breakdown, lawlessness and so on......I'm pretty sure that all bets and bullet buttons will be off at that point and mag buttons and 30rd rebuild kits will be game on.

+1 ^^^

[dansgold]

I usally think of force multiplier more in terms of starting with hand to hand combat for example.....it's a straight 1-on-1 deal. Where moving up the chain, different weapons will enable a persons ability to engage multiple threats. So an increased rate of fire and greater long distance accuracy would increase the mutliplication factor for example, which is why an FA rifle would be considered more of a multiplier then an SA rifle would.
...

I won't argue with your position so much as note that the military does not define things the same way you do.

Shotguns are absolutely thought to be force multipliers, both for the multi-role aspects I ahve already mentioned, as well as the fact that the enemy absolutely fears this weapon. Fear/reputation is considered a major FM, BTW.

By way of further example ... in a standard RTFA fireteam, the M429 SAW is considered an FM, because it allows a squad to engage enemy forces of greater number than if they were all armed with standard M4 carbines ... the suppression capability of the SAW is what multiplies the effectiveness of the team, by keeping the enemy "pinned down" ... mostly out of fear. The SG is capable of similar suppression capability (within certain ranges) and is actually used in this combat role.

A standard M4 (and AR-15, etc. for us civilians) mag-fed, centerfire rifle is considered a baseline , "normal" weapons system. To be an FM, something needs to offer some kind of advantage over that baseline. Saying that the baseline weapon is itself an FM is something of a contradiction in terms.

[dansgold]

... If the S truly HTF, mass social breakdown, lawlessness and so on......I'm pretty sure that all bets and bullet buttons will be off at that point and mag buttons and 30rd rebuild kits will be game on.

Nope, it's all about the 100-round c-mag kits I have ready for quick assembly, as well as several "experimental" things I only mess with on private property in the NV desert.

[illuminate10]

Because everyone views SHTF as themselves being a one man army, we're gonna be in a war type environment, with taking on your own citizens in combat everyday.....all of a sudden we're going to go outside and start shooting our neighbors. ........

I think noone will have time for war, just little time and few tools to get their necessities. Supermarkets out of groceries, shoe stores out of boots, no more bottled and running water etc.... Who's gonna have the ENERGY for everyman for themselves multiplayer version of Call of Duty Modern Warfare

Shotgun for me is fine.

[dansgold]

Because everyone views SHTF as themselves being a one man army, we're gonna be in a war type environment, with taking on your own citizens in combat everyday.....all of a sudden we're going to go outside and start shooting our neighbors. ...

I sure hope not. Even so, I am pretty well prepared.

[illuminate10]

In a war type environment there's so much more than the "grunt" working to let that fighter be successful. You need a whole chain of supporters that arn't on the actual battlefield.
The way alot of SHTF type scenario's I see written out would portend to everyone having an enemy that would need to be confronted with some serious cover fire from small arms. That sounds like another army or.............a well organized opposition to the Constitution? What kind of force could that be??

[Untamed1972]

A standard M4 (and AR-15, etc. for us civilians) mag-fed, centerfire rifle is considered a baseline , "normal" weapons system. To be an FM, something needs to offer some kind of advantage over that baseline. Saying that the baseline weapon is itself an FM is something of a contradiction in terms.

Well in military terms I can see that because most likely your enemies will be using a similar type of weapon so they kind of cancel eachother out in the multiplication, which is why stepping up to something like SAW becomes more of a multiplier.


But if in a SHTF scenario the multiplication factor of a standard SA AR will also be dependent on the threat you're facing.


And I'm not aguring the value and usefulness of an SG, I'm just saying it's use does have limits, and if you have to choose only one it might not be the best all around choice.

[cmth]

SHTF to me means run off and hide in the woods. In that case I would take my Marlin 60 and all the Wal-mart bulk ammo I could carry. A shotgun would be my close in defensive weapon of choice. I would not be running raids on armored columns like in Red Dawn, so I don't really care if I have a tactical weapon or not.

[Cokebottle]

I think it's funny that this always gets tossed into the SHTF debates. If the S truly HTF, mass social breakdown, lawlessness and so on......I'm pretty sure that all bets and bullet buttons will be off at that point and mag buttons and 30rd rebuild kits will be game on.

Yes and no.

In the most realistic SHTF scenarios, it's only going to be temporary, and most likely somewhat localized.
DOJ/BATF are going nowhere... but your local PD might.

I have no intentions of committing a crime simply because it seems that there is no social order.

[Jason762]

I think it's funny that this always gets tossed into the SHTF debates. If the S truly HTF, mass social breakdown, lawlessness and so on......I'm pretty sure that all bets and bullet buttons will be off at that point and mag buttons and 30rd rebuild kits will be game on.

Obviously certain weapons are going to excell in certain categories and not others, if you hafta choose only one though then it's balancing act of which ONE tool will excell the most in the most categories.

Thank you, someone else with a good head on their shoulders! And even in the event where law and order still exists, bullet-buttoned/pistol grip-less rifle will stop looters and others with equal effectiveness.

In the city, where law and order still exists to some degree, you will not need more than 10 rounds for your rifle (and you'll probably have a pistol too, right? Right?). A shot or two will force most people to look elsewhere. These people are not going to be willing to enter a protracted firefight to "get you" when the police and the military are right around the corner. They will want someone they can quickly subdue without much attention and slip away before law enforcement or military knows what happened.

But... but... but... in the confusion nobody is going to help you, you might think. This is true, however most criminals will be busy looting department stores first. By the time the stores are picked clean, law and order is typically restored to some degree. It is at this time criminals go after individuals, and when this time rolls around, there's usually an excess of law enforcement officers, national guard, and private contractors on the ground.

These guys will be quickly attracted to the gunfire, and you can be relatively assured any attacking groups will scatter before the arrival of goverment officials. Hopefully you'll also have enough sense to go inside/hide your firearms so your gear won't be confiscated or yourself arrested.

So what am I saying? A shotgun will do fine, but so will a rifle. But with a rifle it can be used for "harder" events (which, in all likelihood, will never happen).

In the event of total SHTF (we're talking total collapse here), nobody is going to give a rat's arse if your firearm is properly configured... except for those looking for easy targets. And it's here you're going to want something better than a shotgun.

My responses below in bold:

Because everyone views SHTF as themselves being a one man army, we're gonna be in a war type environment, with taking on your own citizens in combat everyday.....all of a sudden we're going to go outside and start shooting our neighbors. ........
No... Some of us with questionable moral integrity might do that.

I only speak for myself (but hopefully the great majority agree), but in a SHTF event I would carry a firearm for the purpose of self-defense. Just like a current-day CCW licensee.

I think noone will have time for war, just little time and few tools to get their necessities. Supermarkets out of groceries, shoe stores out of boots, no more bottled and running water etc.... Who's gonna have the ENERGY for everyman for themselves multiplayer version of Call of Duty Modern Warfare

Shotgun for me is fine.

And in a small-scale SHTF event you are right (small-scale being local to one, two, three states i.e. not a state/nation-wide event), this is appropriate.

Nobody, except a few opportunistic loonies (such as extremist in the same category as James Wesley Rawles or Ragnar Benson) will be "waging war" in this type of scenario. Those who do "wage war" will be put down promptly by government agencies and/or private contractors.

Yes and no.

In the most realistic SHTF scenarios, it's only going to be temporary, and most likely somewhat localized.
DOJ/BATF are going nowhere... but your local PD might.

I have no intentions of committing a crime simply because it seems that there is no social order.

I think Untamed is talking more about total collapse, something that's not likely to happen in our lifetime. But... if 2012/Day After Tomorrow/Red Dawn/etc were to happen, do you think anyone would care about laws?

[dchang0]

See now I disagree about needing to reach out like that.

It's not really a question of having "enough reach," but of having "superior reach." In other words, having a rifle for SHTF (or for combat in general) isn't about having enough range to take down zombies from afar--it's about having more range than the guys attacking you (with shotguns, handguns, or rifles).

One thing to keep in mind with all this, is the law, if your planning on taking out targets at long range, there will be a small concret cell in your future post event.

Not necessarily. If the bad guys are armed with rifles (as some were in Katrina's looting), you can still act in self-defense firing at long ranges. Again, it's about having superior reach than the bad guys. Of course, to act defensively, the bad guys MUST be armed with rifles or other lethal-at-long-range weapons--otherwise they wouldn't really pose a threat to your life.