Bird/Buck/Slug what does LE use

[FalconLair]

i posted this in the LEO section, but, i also would appreciate feedback from non-LEO shotgun owners and their views concerning HD using a shotgun - just ignore the LEO related stuff and i would greatly appreciate comments about the rest - what are the issue you concern yourself with having a shotgun at the ready for HD

in their shotguns?

taking into consideration spread, penetration, distance - im trying to decide what i want to use as HD shells for my home - im leaning toward birdshot mainly because i figure any real threat to me will be close range in my home

i'd also like to hear what kind of shells LE use and WHY?

what do they take into consideration when deciding what loads they want in their shotguns? i get the fact the situation(s) may be totally different, one reason i'd like to know why

for me, birdshot seems like it would deliver at close range just as well as 00 buckshot, with maybe just a little less penetration - 00 is doable for me, but my fear is over penetration, possibly thru walls, into other rooms, etc.

im not really considering slug rounds, unless maybe a bear breaks in, they seem a bit overkill for HD, unless im given a viable reason for their HD use besides the bear theory - the threat of a bear in my neighborhood is pretty miniscule

what's LE's take on shotgun loads for self defense

[JagerDog]

If it penetrates BG's, especially those who may have tough clothing it will penetrate drywall. Add in you may not get a CoM shot. If I hit him in the shoulder I want that bastard broken.

#1 Buck is the smallest which achieves FBI minimum standards. Birdshot is a LOT less penetration, not just a little. We're talking 4" vs 14".

TMK LE doesn't use anything less than #00 except maybe dynamic entry. Slugs are only used if distance increases, but an AR is a better platform then and you can't pursue them outside of the house anyways for HD.

[-hanko]

i posted this in the LEO section, but, i also would appreciate feedback from non-LEO shotgun owners and their views concerning HD using a shotgun - just ignore the LEO related stuff and i would greatly appreciate comments about the rest - what are the issue you concern yourself with having a shotgun at the ready for HD

When you write "for me, birdshot seems like it would deliver at close range just as well as 00 buckshot, with maybe just a little less penetration - 00 is doable for me, but my fear is over penetration, possibly thru walls, into other rooms, etc.", you demonstrate very little experience and / or knowledge as to what shot shells are needed for HD. Bird shot is designed to kill very thin skinned creatures, not an actor inside your house, perhaps wearing heavy clothing.

Bird shot will not meet FBI minimum penetration requirements. If you're defending yourself and family from a flock of canaries, go for it. What works for HD with minimal penetration is an AR.

I'd worry more about stopping the actor in my house, and I have yet to see an "over penetration" issue related to home defense. Has over penetration been an issue in HD scenarios or not??

[FalconLair]

When you write "for me, birdshot seems like it would deliver at close range just as well as 00 buckshot, with maybe just a little less penetration - 00 is doable for me, but my fear is over penetration, possibly thru walls, into other rooms, etc.", you demonstrate very little experience and / or knowledge as to what shot shells are needed for HD. Bird shot is designed to kill very thin skinned creatures, not an actor inside your house, perhaps wearing heavy clothing.

Bird shot will not meet FBI minimum penetration requirements. If you're defending yourself and family from a flock of canaries, go for it. What works for HD with minimal penetration is an AR.

I'd worry more about stopping the actor in my house, and I have yet to see an "over penetration" issue related to home defense. Has over penetration been an issue in HD scenarios or not??

which is why i created the thread - i haven't fired a shotgun in 20+ years, haven't kept up to date with the different loads or their effectiveness for HD - as far as experience i've never shot someone in a HD situation, how many have you shot?

and yes, i am concerned about over penetration, not over penetrating the perp, im talking about loads strong enough to exit a perp and still penetrate through a nearby wall, which is why i asked? You see how it works is, you ask the question to HOPEFULLY more knowledgeable people in the hopes that they can give you some decent advice, especially when the plan isn't to have it as a primary HD firearm

the best you've been able to accomplish is wonder if im thinking about defending me or my family against a flock of canaries, which in itself is absurd, because we all know that a "flock" of canaries would actually be called an "aria of canaries" - you come off as a pretty intelligent guy, so i figure you were just trying to trick me, right, because im sure a guy with all the knowledge you seem to have wouldn't intentionally try to misspeak, although i did notice a rather suspicious "flock" of black crows peering into my window a few days ago

[FalconLair]

If it penetrates BG's, especially those who may have tough clothing it will penetrate drywall. Add in you may not get a CoM shot. If I hit him in the shoulder I want that bastard broken.

#1 Buck is the smallest which achieves FBI minimum standards. Birdshot is a LOT less penetration, not just a little. We're talking 4" vs 14".

TMK LE doesn't use anything less than #00 except maybe dynamic entry. Slugs are only used if distance increases, but an AR is a better platform then and you can't pursue them outside of the house anyways for HD.

i'll admit i was definitely in search of maybe a "happy medium" - like you said there is no guarantee of a center shot, why not have some concern about where the six or seven other 00 buck shots end up, and what they might do?

you bring up a good point about the clothing, especially heavy clothing - i know i don't live in CA, regardless, i would hate to see myself in a situation where a PA felt i over did it with my shotgun loads in a self defense scenario

i also did some online searching for advice - there are actually a couple of videos out there by knowledgeable shotgun people who advocate using birdshot over buckshot for HD - go figure

for me, that at least made it somewhat arguable, which is why i created the thread, the more pro's and con's from more experienced shotgun owners, the better i figured - maybe i'll buy a few hundred of both 00 buck and #8 bird and run my own test in the desert

[Daze]

low recoil OO

I went through a similar debate when I considered using my shotty for HD. I was also concerned with over penetration as I share a wall with my neighbor. I did some training with a few instructors. One brought several pieces of plywood and sheet rock along so that we could test how the various different rounds penetrated and or over penetrated. My own choice was a low recoil 00 buck for it's consistent patterning and lack of over penetration.
Just one guys experience though

[Maltese Falcon]

My go to ammo for the inside shotgun.

https://www.luckygunner.com/12-ga-2-3-4-00-buck-federal-8p-law-enforcement-flitecontrol-wad-250-round

.

[FalconLair]

I went through a similar debate when I considered using my shotty for HD. I was also concerned with over penetration as I share a wall with my neighbor. I did some training with a few instructors. One brought several pieces of plywood and sheet rock along so that we could test how the various different rounds penetrated and or over penetrated. My own choice was a low recoil 00 buck for it's consistent patterning and lack of over penetration.
Just one guys experience though

this video on the subject got me to wondering - of course a watermelon isn't consistent with the human body, one has to wonder how, even with the stronger penetrating loads, the 00 buck, and the slug round, how it would actually penetrate the human body and what energy the load would have to still penetrate more



also, listening to this guy and his opinion, mainly talking about the penetration power of a bird load versus a buck load - both these guy probably have more shotgun knowledge than me, which is one of the reasons i created the thread - pro's and con's, is there a definite right load, is there a definitely wrong load - i was trying to keep it that simple, if possible

[JagerDog]

i'll admit i was definitely in search of maybe a "happy medium" - like you said there is no guarantee of a center shot, why not have some concern about where the six or seven other 00 buck shots end up, and what they might do?

you bring up a good point about the clothing, especially heavy clothing - i know i don't live in CA, regardless, i would hate to see myself in a situation where a PA felt i over did it with my shotgun loads in a self defense scenario

i also did some online searching for advice - there are actually a couple of videos out there by knowledgeable shotgun people who advocate using birdshot over buckshot for HD - go figure

for me, that at least made it somewhat arguable, which is why i created the thread, the more pro's and con's from more experienced shotgun owners, the better i figured - maybe i'll buy a few hundred of both 00 buck and #8 bird and run my own test in the desert

Well...I have been shot my #5 shot at effectively zero distance. I could have fought back for a bit if the situation had called for it. My anecdotal experience jives with ballistic gel testing...about 4" penetration. If it had been "buck something" I doubt I would be responding.

#1 buck is the "happy medium" at HD distances.

[therealnickb]

which is why i created the thread - i haven't fired a shotgun in 20+ years, haven't kept up to date with the different loads or their effectiveness for HD - as far as experience i've never shot someone in a HD situation, how many have you shot?

and yes, i am concerned about over penetration, not over penetrating the perp, im talking about loads strong enough to exit a perp and still penetrate through a nearby wall, which is why i asked? You see how it works is, you ask the question to HOPEFULLY more knowledgeable people in the hopes that they can give you some decent advice, especially when the plan isn't to have it as a primary HD firearm

the best you've been able to accomplish is wonder if im thinking about defending me or my family against a flock of canaries, which in itself is absurd, because we all know that a "flock" of canaries would actually be called an "aria of canaries" - you come off as a pretty intelligent guy, so i figure you were just trying to trick me, right, because im sure a guy with all the knowledge you seem to have wouldn't intentionally try to misspeak, although i did notice a rather suspicious "flock" of black crows peering into my window a few days ago

Crows are a murder.

I'll go find my birdshot link though...

[therealnickb]

Here you go...

Birdshot struck the stepson in the upper torso, and a struggle ensued for the shotgun. Then Bradley allegedly pulled out a concealed handgun and fired, shooting the stepson in the hip, according to his account to the sheriff’s department.

http://www.marinij.com/article/NO/20...NEWS/171139986

So for some unknown reason the old guy shoots his step son 3 times. Twice with birdshot! The step son was treated and released.

Birdshot is for birds.

[FalconLair]

Crows are a murder.

I'll go find my birdshot link though...

they are a murder, i of all people should've known that

thanks for the link too

** i got a "Page not found" with the link

[FalconLair]

Well...I have been shot my #5 shot at effectively zero distance. I could have fought back for a bit if the situation had called for it. My anecdotal experience jives with ballistic gel testing...about 4" penetration. If it had been "buck something" I doubt I would be responding.

#1 buck is the "happy medium" at HD distances.

yeah, i see - that #1 buck looks like something i could get on board with

i'll research it some more on it

thanks

[therealnickb]

they are a murder, i of all people should've known that

thanks for the link too

** i got a "Page not found" with the link

Looks like they pulled that story. Regardless, don't use birdshot.

Here's another one...

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/public-safety/2017-05-01/police-son-says-father-shot-him-face-shotgun-during-argument

[lewdogg21]

I shoot lots of birds with birdshoot. It's not very often that I find a through and through vs. if I were to use buckshot.

If your going to shoot someone to protect your life or your families lives why wouldn't you want the best option to neutralize the threat?