Question for the AR/22 shooters out there.

[CSACANNONEER]

I am not a lawyer but I would stay away from any cloth belts bigger than 10 rds.

Bob,

Some of us have had cloth belts for many years. I have 100 round and 250 round ones for my 1919. Most of them are still new! I prefer using links but, I don't see a legal reason to stay away from cloth belts as long as you had them prior to 1-1-00.

[Lakeside]

here may be the trouble...

From what I'm reading here, the CA ban date everyone is mentioning is the manufacture or importation of a hi-cap into CA after 1/1/00.

Well, all Lakeside Machine belts are made after sept 13th 2004.....including all links. there are NO PRE-ban links of any type as the rimfire link wasn't invented until 9/13/04......


there are only one kind of cloth belt that can be proven to be made before 1/100....and that is the cream color/tan looking belts. this belt color is the only differentiation from old to new belts. The cream belts were last made in 1987. All white color belts are made after the federal ban expiration.

So, with this timeline of belt/link manufacture, can the links even be sent to CA in any quantity because they are newly made? If they are not able to be sent, then the Razorback would have no real possible market in CA.

[CSACANNONEER]

Links would still be fine to send to Ca. as long as they are not sent with ammo linked in more than 10 round belts. Like Bob said, many of us have 1000s of links for our 1919s. Also, 10 round cloth belts are OK. Anyone who owned a Tipman belt (I'm assuming they are the same thing) before 1-1-00 can use it with your upper. Or, maybe someone could have made their own belts for their Tipman prior to 1-1-00. If so, those belts would be legal here too.

[CHS]

Well, all Lakeside Machine belts are made after sept 13th 2004.....including all links. there are NO PRE-ban links of any type as the rimfire link wasn't invented until 9/13/04......

Just to reiterate what was said before, and what CSACANNONEER is saying, links are perfectly legal.

Belts should be legal without ammo in them, but since there is no legal way to put ammo in them in CA, are best avoided.

You can send us links in bags of 1000 or more if you want, or if you want to take the most paranoid approach, bag them up in quantities of 10 and send them in that way.

[50BMGBOB]

I remember there was a DOJ determination that 100 round cloth belts weren't banned until loaded up- Northridge international was still selling them after the 2K ban because of this. It was posted on Calguns if I remember right....

Maybe someone here has a copy of the letter?

I wasn't on Calguns back then but if it is true I would love to see the letter on it.

The AW guide is not law and is full of all kinds of bad information not backed up by law.

A cloth belt with more than 10 loops is perfectly legal in CA, as is a non-disintegrating metal belt with more than 10 links. The "capacity" doesn't become regulated by the law until there is actually ammunition in the belt.

I agree that the CADOJ puts out a lot of FUD but unless you had the cloth belts before the ban I would stay away from them. If you had them before the ban, I would have no problem loading a cloth belt up again. What different is it from reloading a 30 rd mag for another gun? There are some here that have belts for the Tippmans that should work fine in the new Razor. That would be 100% legal if they had the belts here in CA from before the ban but it wouldn't be legal for them to now go and buy older belts and bring them into CA after the ban.

New links are not an issue. You just can't link more than 10 rds here in CA. You can have thousands and you can link longer belts when you go out of state, just shoot or disassemble them before bringing them back to CA.

[Clodbuster]

When the LM7 upper was introduced, ATF was deciding whether or not it was going to be classified as a firearm. Fortunately, they ruled that it was an upper.
But if it had been classified as a firearm, how would you handle shipping in a .22lr firearm that was 20 inches long.


Clod

California law says what you CANT do, not what you can do.

Nothing in CA law says that uppers or other firearms parts can't be shipped in. I work at an FFL and we sell uppers, believe me, it's legal.

Also, CA law doesn't say anything about shipping in links, so that is legal as well.

[CHS]

But if it had been classified as a firearm, how would you handle shipping in a .22lr firearm that was 20 inches long.

Like any other Title 1 firearm.

AR receivers are only about 8" long, and are perfectly legal Title 1 firearms.

You're confusing terms like rifle with firearm.

[Clodbuster]

If you look at the laws concerning belted ammo, it is spelled out clearly that "linked ammo" is considered an ammunition feeding device. The links themselves are not an ammunition feeding device.
Belts on the other hand, I will not touch. The AW guide may be "out of date", but that's what LE use as a guide. I've been approached by LE before, and that is what they whip out as a reference. And in plain simple words, it says that belts with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds is a high capacity magazine. Hard to play illiterate at that point.
There may be case law somewhere that says it's legal, but I don't know of it. Someone should find it and sticky it here if it's not some urban legend.

In the end, I would really consult a lawyer knowledgeable about CA firearm laws.

As a vendor, I would suggest that you simply offer the upper kit, links and belts separately instead of some package deal.

How much parts compatibility is there with the LM7?


Clod

From what I'm reading here, the CA ban date everyone is mentioning is the manufacture or importation of a hi-cap into CA after 1/1/00.

Well, all Lakeside Machine belts are made after sept 13th 2004.....including all links. there are NO PRE-ban links of any type as the rimfire link wasn't invented until 9/13/04......


there are only one kind of cloth belt that can be proven to be made before 1/100....and that is the cream color/tan looking belts. this belt color is the only differentiation from old to new belts. The cream belts were last made in 1987. All white color belts are made after the federal ban expiration.

So, with this timeline of belt/link manufacture, can the links even be sent to CA in any quantity because they are newly made? If they are not able to be sent, then the Razorback would have no real possible market in CA.

[gunn]

Eric:
I'm not sure if you remember me but I called you a few months ago when i was considering a mini-1919 build in CA. You gave me some helpful tips and put me in contact with 50BMGBOB.

If you decide to sell us Californians these beltfed uppers and links, I'll probably be interested in getting one.
-g

[saki302]

I have been thinking about the links/belts hi-cap issue.

Now, we know DOJ allows us to rebuild our hi-cap MAGS as long as you aren't creating an additional mag in the process (i.e. you are disassembling and rebuilding a single mag).

Now, take the info above- it is accepted as fact. Now, say you shoot down your 10+ round linked strip or belt. By reloading it, you are not creating an additional hi-cap mag, but rebuilding your LEGAL disassembled one.

Any thoughts on my reasoning?

-Dave

PS- and yes, only the dark tan canvas-y Tippman belts are real hi-caps from pre-2K, unfortunately. They have the same texture as 1919 full size belts and are easy to identify.