Question for the AR/22 shooters out there.

[Lakeside]

First post on this forum. Let me introduce myself....I am Eric from Lakeside Machine. Our company products are all beltfed rimfires in many forms and configurations. i am looking at launching a new product this next month that may be able to fit in the state of CA....somehow. i need some up to date advice and ideas on how we can get this product into CA.....

Basically what we are going to introduce is an inexpensive beltfed upper for AR 15 ri9fles for semi-auto operation only. It is NOT classified as a firearm as was the LM7 we produced back in 2004.


Anyway, the uppers are fed by cloth belts and the nylon links......this is where the problem is. From our understanding, hi-cap devicesare not able to be sent to individuals in CA anymore.......how can this be delt with??? OR is it totally out of the question???

Please respond witrh your thoughts and ideas, as i know there are many CA shooters of rimfire that would like this new project.....




thanks for all your time..
ERIC

[vega]

Welcome to the forum and thanks for supporting us Californians.
Is there such a thing called 10 rd belt?

[Lakeside]

Yes, we have made 10 round cloth belts before. I am not sure if 10 links would fly as they can be joined together if more were bought. I remember it was legal in CA years ago to have links.....but was told no more links at all now.

whats the real scoop on belts and links these days??

[vega]

hi-cap devicesare not able to be sent to individuals in CA anymore....
ERIC

I know you are talking about 22 and belt/nylon feeding device but in general, high capacity device can still be shipped to California as long as it is disassembled and will be use to replace damaged parts of existing hi-cap mags or turn it to a maximum 10 round device.

[Lakeside]

So if the links are "disassembled" they are ok to ship to CA in quantities over 10?


if they are sent to replace damaged links, what is the protocal to prove there were damaged links?


There are a few cloth belts in CA from the old Tippmann days, but not enough to supply new products coming in......



>>>>what if the CA resident was able to make a disposable belt, cheap and fast...????

[vega]

I'll post a link to the proper forum so you'll get more traffic.

[Btango05]

IMO, just me, but you asked..... I don't see a big market for belt fed AR-22 uppers with 10 round limits. I checked out your website and saw the the LM7 very cool looking rifle! However with being limited to 10 rounds I just don't see myself putting it on my "got to have" list...just me though.

I would like to sincerely thank you for your effort to try and give us Californians a legal to own firearm. I could be totally be wrong and there could be a huge market that would love to load 10 round strips at a time.

I think what most of want in an AR-22 is a proven system.... the "Glock" of .22's if you will. Something that has great quality control, never jams, never light strike, fails to eject, fails to fire....etc...etc...etc..If your belt fed AR-22 can do that, then I would put it on my list.

[Lakeside]

Thanks for the response.....

Humor me a moment...

We ARE going to produce an "LM7 type" upper receiver (NON-firearm Through the mail direct sales/no-FFL required) As a matter of fact it is going to be reveiled the 1st week of Oct.

This new upper is semi-auto only from our factory.

It has the capability of belt feeding either cloth belts or links.

It will fit any AR lower out there that can accomodate bottom/thru the magwell, empty case ejection. We may be able to design a side ejection system just for the CA state if there are enough lowers out there with no magwells...

Price will be VERY competative with all the other dedicated uppers out there.



Now, I am willing to market this item to CA ......IF there is a way to sell it there AND find a high capacity avenue.

I need to know the following...
1) Can or is rimfire excluded from high capacity regulations there?
2) Can rimfire disintegrating links be shipped in quantities of 10, AND can the owner possess more than 10 links at one time BUT never hook together more than 10 rounds?
HERE'S the BIG question that definetely needs to be answered....
3) Is it possible for CA private individuals to MANUFACTURE his own high capacity feeding device and use it, as long as it isn't sold or brought into commerce in any way? IE, if you had your own mold for 25 round Butler Creek 10/22 mags and made your own, but never sold them....could this be done and be legal in CA?



thanks again...

[CSACANNONEER]

I need to know the following...
1) Can or is rimfire excluded from high capacity regulations there?
2) Can rimfire disintegrating links be shipped in quantities of 10, AND can the owner possess more than 10 links at one time BUT never hook together more than 10 rounds?
HERE'S the BIG question that definetely needs to be answered....
3) Is it possible for CA private individuals to MANUFACTURE his own high capacity feeding device and use it, as long as it isn't sold or brought into commerce in any way? IE, if you had your own mold for 25 round Butler Creek 10/22 mags and made your own, but never sold them....could this be done and be legal in CA?



thanks again...

1) rimfire mags are NOT exempt
2) Yes, this is perfectly legal and done by those of us who have belt fed guns including at least one member here who built a .22lr 1919 LONG GUN (not handgun) from one of your kits. It would also be legal to use belts that were originally in one's posession prior to 1-1-00.
3) manufacture of +10 round mags would be a felony

[Bigballaizm]

Hola/Welcome to Calguns & thank you for supporting & attempting to market new free state products to us!
Ok, I will attempt to answer your questions...
1-No Rimfire is not excluded.
2-IIRC Yes....
3-I dont believe so...
This is to the best of my knowledge, Im sure one of my CalGun brothers will correct me if I was wrong in any point.
Ok... I was watching TV while I was answering this so CSA beat me to it... Thanx bro.

[Clodbuster]

There are few lowers with sealed magwells these days, so the LM7 bottom ejection is perfectly fine.

A belt fed upper is certainly going to be a small niche. Unless the price is very competitive

As others have already stated, unless a Californian owns the old tippman belts prior to 2000, they are limited to 10rds, cloth or disintegrating links.

You could market the uppers only with disintegrating links, instead of package deals which included the 100 rd cloth belts as was done for the LM7 kits. Those kits could not be shipped directly to CA because of that.
Also I think there would be some interest in a spare 16" heavy barrel that fits the LM7. And maybe a spare bolt


Clod

Thanks for the response.....

Humor me a moment...

We ARE going to produce an "LM7 type" upper receiver (NON-firearm Through the mail direct sales/no-FFL required) As a matter of fact it is going to be reveiled the 1st week of Oct.

This new upper is semi-auto only from our factory.

It has the capability of belt feeding either cloth belts or links.

It will fit any AR lower out there that can accomodate bottom/thru the magwell, empty case ejection. We may be able to design a side ejection system just for the CA state if there are enough lowers out there with no magwells...

Price will be VERY competative with all the other dedicated uppers out there.



Now, I am willing to market this item to CA ......IF there is a way to sell it there AND find a high capacity avenue.

I need to know the following...
1) Can or is rimfire excluded from high capacity regulations there?
2) Can rimfire disintegrating links be shipped in quantities of 10, AND can the owner possess more than 10 links at one time BUT never hook together more than 10 rounds?
HERE'S the BIG question that definetely needs to be answered....
3) Is it possible for CA private individuals to MANUFACTURE his own high capacity feeding device and use it, as long as it isn't sold or brought into commerce in any way? IE, if you had your own mold for 25 round Butler Creek 10/22 mags and made your own, but never sold them....could this be done and be legal in CA?



thanks again...

[Lakeside]

A belt fed upper is certainly going to be a small niche. Unless the price is very competitive

What would a competetive price range be? And would the Razorback be compared price wise to the other mag fed dedicated uppers out there? Those range from 400-750ish in price depending on maker and bells/whistles....

thnaks for the response.

[CHS]

Eric, first off let me THANK YOU for taking the time and effort to learn a little bit about our (stupid) laws that we have to deal with in California.

For what you are proposing, very little will actually impact you (or us) legally. First off, you're selling an upper, which is just a part. There is no control of "parts" in CA, so you don't have to worry about that. Also, Rimfire rifles can have any "evil features" from CA's AWB which regulates a different set of "evil features" than the old Federal AWB. So you don't need to worry about neutering your uppers in any way.

Now, as to the belts/links. CA actually defines the hi-cap device as the LINKED ammunition. Belts and links themselves are perfectly legal to ship into California. In fact, in my very non-professional opinion, not only is it legal to ship a 100rd cloth belt to CA, but it should be legal to even use it, as long as no more than 10rd's are installed at any one time.

Links are simple. Send us bags of them, and we just need to make sure we link no more than 10 at a time.

Super easy! Very legal. No hassle and nothing for you to really worry about!

[CHS]

What would a competetive price range be? And would the Razorback be compared price wise to the other mag fed dedicated uppers out there? Those range from 400-750ish in price depending on maker and bells/whistles....

I would definitely pay 400-750'ish for a .22lr belt-fed upper.

Plus, I got to AZ and NV enough that I could get use out of 100rd belts

[Clodbuster]

Please re-read the AW guide:

A large capacity magazine also includes linked ammunition with more
than 10 rounds linked together or an ammunition belt with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

Clod

Now, as to the belts/links. CA actually defines the hi-cap device as the LINKED ammunition. Belts and links themselves are perfectly legal to ship into California. In fact, in my very non-professional opinion, not only is it legal to ship a 100rd cloth belt to CA, but it should be legal to even use it, as long as no more than 10rd's are installed at any one time.

Links are simple. Send us bags of them, and we just need to make sure we link no more than 10 at a time.

Super easy! Very legal. No hassle and nothing for you to really worry about!