Winchetser 1885? Trap?

[AR22]

I picked up this old clunker for a project at the local show..I assume it is a Low Wall..Some kind of strange things with it..Has a front combination sight..Broken off of course..But I see no rear dovetail at all..Barrel is marked Winchester 22 Long R in addition to the other barrel address. There are two small tapped screws just in front of the receiver about two inches apart on top the barrel.

Also wandering if anyone recolonizes the receiver mounted sight? It has a knob with a gear that raises and lowers it, and graduation marks. Has a small aperture flip in it.. Never seen one of these types of old sights before..The reciever mounted sight is also missing what was likely a thumb set screw for locking the sight once you had your elevation adjusted..I will make those parts if I can find what they looked like or what or who made the receiver sight.

Bore is not great and no wood, rough condition, it does fire and eject empties though.. But other than those small details,

I think it was made in 1918.

Any input appreciated..Thanks

Pics

[toro1]

Looks like it might be what is left of a Winder musket although 22lr were not very common. Most that I have seen were 22short.

I'll look for a link that shows one with a sight which I think was a Lyman sight.

Edit-
Here is a link and they show a Lyman 53 sight part way down.

https://surplused.com/index.php/2020/05/15/the-model-1885-winder-muskets/

BTW, I think someone was still making stocks and forearms as of a few years ago.

[AR22]

Your good..It appears you are likely spot on, Musket.

"The serial number range is 121,800 – 139,700, but early in production, a fair number of guns were made using leftover high-wall frames in the 100,000 –109,000 serial range"

Mine is in the 109,000 range exactly and has the molded in front sight base.

Kinda a problem I suppose as no one likely makes the Musket forearm wood?
Pic of my front sight and a couple Winder Musket pics..

[AR22]

Forgot..Mine has exactly a 28 Inch barrel, as stated in the Article also..

Sorry this is a pic of where the hole location on my barrel would mount the Krag Style sight. Close to the Receiver..

I did also find a wood set for the Musket from a vendor..Not cheap though..200.00 for the set..Not sure that price is worthy for this project though..I will see..

[toro1]

Not sure what vendor you found with the stock set, but Macon Gunstocks has a set for ~$160 but you'll also need to find the forearm clamp.

https://shop.macongunstocks.com/Winchester-Model-1885-Winchester-1885-Miruko-1885_c67.htm

FWIW, it is an enjoyable gun to shoot and the fact it is Mil Surp is a big plus in my book. Parts can be tough to find, but do surface at gun shows periodically.

A few pics of mine. The previous owner cut the forearm so I need to get one of those someday.

[AR22]

Mine does not have the US markings like yours..Does that mean it is not what we are thinning it is..Gunville is the place I seen the wood at..

Mine is a High Wall Frame it appears too..But as it stated in the writeup some early third variations in the 109,000 range were made using leftover High Wall frames.

The more I read and look at features..The more I get confused as to what this is exactly.

Need to find and contact a fella that goes by username BurtH on some of the forums I have seen him on..He seems to be very knowledgeable about these Winders....

He is also the one that wrote the article we are obtaining our info from.. I believe.

[toro1]

Mine does not have the US markings like yours..Does that mean it is not what we are thinning it is..Gunville is the place I seen the wood at..

Mine is a High Wall Frame it appears too..But as it stated in the writeup some early third variations in the 109,000 range were made using leftover High Wall frames.

The more I read and look at features..The more I get confused as to what this is exactly.

Need to find and contact a fella that goes by username BurtH on some of the forums I have seen him on..He seems to be very knowledgeable about these Winders....

He is also the one that wrote the article we are obtaining our info from.. I believe.

Yea, Burt is the man and the article has a link to a winder survey (I think its still active) that you could fill out and send to him, and ask if what you have is a Winder

Based on the article, I think (and my knowledge is limited) you have a 1st variation which would have a rear sight mounted to the barrel, be a low serial number (as stated in the 1st variation writeup), chambered in 22lr, and not have a flaming bomb. FWIW, the 3rd variation writeup seems to be in conflict with the first variation write up WRT serial numbers, but maybe there was a SN overlap.

Sorry for any misinformation I passed along as mine is a 3rd variation and so was relaying information particular to that. I had not delved into the 1st and 2nd variation details until now, and there are significant differences.

[AR22]

Thanks I sent him an email

Thing that is somewhat confusing me is my holes for the rear sight on the barrel are way rearward right in front of the reciever..The 1st and 2nd variation have the sight mounted much further towards the middle section of the barrel.

Mine may have been a cleanup Winder made from whatever parts were still laying around..Hopefully Burt will get back to me and we can learn exactly what I have..

I did not find the Winder wood listed on Macon. Did you actually see a listing for it there? Thanks

[toro1]

Thanks I sent him an email

I did not find the Winder wood listed on Macon. Did you actually see a listing for it there? Thanks

Oops! it used to be shown on the same page as the 1885 stuff, but its not there anymore. However, they still show it on their general catalogue listing page.

https://www.macongunstocks.com/catalog-pricing-n-z.html

Scroll down to the Winchester section and its just above the 1885 stuff.

Please let us know what Bert says if he gets back to you.

[AR22]

They have a listing yet that says this..I will call them tommorow and see.

Low Wall Winder Musket forend $80

No pic shown though.

I will let you know if Burt gets back to me and what he has to say.

[TRAP55]

AR22 ,nice find!
If the bore is still good, well worth putting back together. Toro covered all the bases on the Winder, but do get a hold of Bert, he may even have a source for a stock set too.

[AR22]

Burt got back to me this afternoon and I sent him some pics and info. The Bore looks pretty crappy really..I could reline it..But I did take it out again and shot a cardboard box from about 30 yards out..No real flyers, and no tumblers so it might shoot OK yet..I had about a 2 Inch group offhand with no sights,LOL

I completely tore it apart today cleaned all the internals.They were pretty bad..Big chunk of lead behind the ejector that was built up and causing a light strike occasionally I think. I think that cleaning solved that issue..As I pulled about five bullets here at home and they all fired the first time..

Thanks fellas and I will let ya know what Burt says..

[CSLucas]

Awesome find. Love these old guns

CsL

[AR22]

Hope no one thinks any of those pictured that are pretty are mine? Mine is the pic of the crappy rusty one in the first post of just the receiver..Here is the "rest of my crap one..

[TRAP55]

I see a functioning gun like that, and I always wonder WTH happened to the rest of it, and why did they take it apart in the first place?
I don't see anything that indicates it was in a fire, and if it was, if the springs are still good, the rest is too. A bare HiWall action, "if" you can find one for sale, is going to be $600+, and for me anyhow, finding one in rimfire would be a plus to build a .17HMR on.