CA DOJ illegally requiring upload of FFL-03 when renewing COE

[morrcarr67]

I'm so glad I'm leaving this state. My COE has expired and I'm good with that.

[spampops93]

This is for a renewal. I had a back and forth this morning with "Bureau of Firearms" who continued to cite "PC 26970(a)(4), PC 26585, PC 27670, PC 27966, and PC 31700" over and over. I even stated CCR 4037 and he continued to push back, not varying from the wording at all. I finally sent a message that simply states, "My application is complete. Please process my application as soon as possible. Thanks." He didn't reply. I will check my CFARS in a week to see if my application changes from incomplete. I'm not in any rush and I don't care if it ends up going beyond the 90 day period. I'm not going to give in to their ridiculous demands.

[DrewN]

Clearly DOJ is looking to close the 03/COE "loophole" as they undoubtedly view it. My suspicion is that once the word got out you could still mail order ammo, there was a big uptick in numbers. My guess is having an 03 will not qualify you for a COE sooner rather than later, and there will be a directed effort by DOJ to reduce the amount of COEs issued as much as possible.

[NapalmCheese]

This may be my faulty memory but when I decided to first get a COE (after having had an 03FFL for years) I seem to recall the application having a questions that was essentially "are you doing this just to buy ammo?". That doesn't seem to be there anymore (if it ever was I guess).

[Capybara]

This may be my faulty memory but when I decided to first get a COE (after having had an 03FFL for years) I seem to recall the application having a questions that was essentially "are you doing this just to buy ammo?". That doesn't seem to be there anymore (if it ever was I guess).

I've had both for 10 years, I can't recall ever seeing that question.

[Chris_H89]

When I first applied for my COE and FFL03 a few years back, my COE processing progressed faster than the 03, and I was emailed asking for my 03 number (I believe due to listing my reason for wanting a COE as firearms collector, though I forget all the details: iirc ammo purchase was another option, as was gun shop employee among a few others).

However, I simply explained via email to the DOJ that I was in the process of obtaining my FFL 03 C&R License and was waiting on it. This was good enough for them, and it went through processing just fine. (the FFL 03 took significantly longer to come in)

I've had a few other issues when renewing my COE, but they all got addressed fairly quickly via email (somewhat surprisingly given some of the DOJ's reputation). I think one of those was a signature missing on the passport I was using for proof of residence, which I simply re-uploaded with signature present.

I have kept my email replies simple and avoided giving unnecessary information or asking questions that might complicate things, though.



As far as some suspicions of "building a list" (or doing so more easily, cheaply, and legally) by making unnecessary requests for info, I suppose that's also possible for targeting people who exclusively use FFL03+COE for ammo purchase. I'd think those active in collecting would more readily be obviously visible to the DoJ as holding both as soon as they use those documents to self-register a C&R firearm or receive one shipped to a dealer, though possibly not when self-registering a firearm brought in from out of state (since the application for that doesn't require a COE; and while the DOJ would have other records of you having a COE, it might be slightly more legally complicated to compile those two things legally depending how divisions of bureaucracy works and information sharing vs legal rights to privacy ... ie even though a OE would obviously be visible within one's CFARS account/profile, and one may have registered a C&R firearm through CFARS with 03 FFL number included; there might be legal separation between the parts of the DOJ processing those that technically aren't supposed to share information without some due cause; I'm not sure there, and it's possible there is no legal restraint there).

But on the suspicion of tracking a list of people likely to be making online/mail-order ammo purchases, I could definitely see that being significant at least, given there's more obvious disconnect between what the DOJ knows and what the ATF knows. (and what they're legally supposed to share ... and even if they did share improperly, then there'd be the risk of legal resource and law suits down the road if such info was ever used to entrap someone ... or if such sharing was ever leaked to the public) Getting private citizens to volunteer such info is obviously much more legally foolproof.

[zatoh]

Apparently, yes, they would not continue to process my renewal without my ffl-03 document.
They do not have the legal authority (in my opinion), but the do have the might.

Were you ever issued you COE? I'm going through this right now. It came up the last time I renewed and I told them there was no requirement and my COE was issued. I just replied with the same. We will see what happens.

[EM2]

Were you ever issued you COE? I'm going through this right now. It came up the last time I renewed and I told them there was no requirement and my COE was issued. I just replied with the same. We will see what happens.

Yes, but I did eventually capitulate to their demand

[Spyder]

I recently submitted a renewal that was old enough I had to apply for a new one. The day after I did my livescan, I was notified I had a new COE. No FFL upload.

[dfletcher]

I just renewed. CFARS didn't ask for my C&R FFL. Actually, they didn't ask for it last year either. Am I in for a 2 week wait and then a reach out asking for it?

Edit: Well that was quick. An automatic "INCOMPLETE" telling me to add it.

So glad this is my final COE in this state.

[NapalmCheese]

There was a Q&A on the caguns site with a lawyer where someone asked about this. The lawyer's opinion was "if you have the money to take it to court, awesome. If you don't, we're stuck; legal or not.".

[EM2]

I just renewed. CFARS didn't ask for my C&R FFL. Actually, they didn't ask for it last year either. Am I in for a 2 week wait and then a reach out asking for it?

Edit: Well that was quick. An automatic "INCOMPLETE" telling me to add it.

So glad this is my final COE in this state.

OK, I chuckled a bit.

[dfletcher]

OK, I chuckled a bit.

I can't believe it. Between adding the C&R about 1pm today & resubmitting, getting home at 6pm and checking just to ensure I did it correctly - the renewal was processed and approved.

I guess that's good. Also means the state must have about a 30 second way of checking out who I am, what I've done, etc.

So the reason we have a 10 day waiting period and the upcoming "permit to purchase" is what ....?

[EM2]

I can't believe it. Between adding the C&R about 1pm today & resubmitting, getting home at 6pm and checking just to ensure I did it correctly - the renewal was processed and approved.

I guess that's good. Also means the state must have about a 30 second way of checking out who I am, what I've done, etc.

So the reason we have a 10 day waiting period and the upcoming "permit to purchase" is what ....?

CONTROL

[G-forceJunkie]

So the reason we have a 10 day waiting period and the upcoming "permit to purchase" is what ....?

The story was it took 10-15 days back when everything was on paper, sent thru the mail. When it got computerized, it was because the background check took a while. When the background checks became instant, it became a "cooling off period."