CMP speculates 1911 rack grade $1000, others higher

[teetsjones]

I was referring to the other poster http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...&postcount=198 who listed old auctions.
Yet you ascribed that to me, until i called you out on it. I pointed out to that poster the same thing so I don't know why you felt the need to point it out to me. But I think we both know why, it was your attempt to discredit me, by alluding I was posting old examples. Seems you have a difficult time with honest discussions.



You are cherry picking the lowest priced ones. What was the average price of all of the listed sales? $1214
Sure I did, to prove you can get a better pistol for less money than what CMP wants to charge.



You are the one that is confused and don't seem to get it, or are at least making assumptions. Several of your examples of "nicer" pistols had terrible reblue jobs. And you keep saying the CMP pistols are in "fair" condition when you haven't even seen them. The CMP doesn't even know their condition, so how do you know they are in "fair" condition?

I don't need those example when I have the ones you provided to prove my point. Sure I had examples of crap, but you helped me by posting those nicely finished pistols selling under$1ooo. No one knows what condition any of their pistols are, what we know is that CMP alluded that Fair Condition Pistols start at $1000. So the condition does not matter, what matters is price to condition. BTW your statement above is just grasping at straws


The CMP pistols are most likely arsenal refurbished, I think we agree on that. I listed several auctions (all I could find) of arsenal refurbished military pistols that sold for an average of $1214. Your examples are of pistols with bad reblue jobs, pitting, wrong grips, etc. - many of which didn't even sell - and you use that as evidence that you can get "nicer" pistols than the ones the CMP will be selling, that you haven't even seen but keep saying are in "fair" condition.
[COLOR="red"]If they are in good/plus I hate to imagine what CMP will charge for them since they want to start Fair at $1000. Some of my examples are the same as yours and they are Good/plus arsenal refurbished. The crappy ones merely show people won't pay $1000 for Fair to Poor guns. Like I said above the average price doesn't matter, what matters is, a person can get a good/plus for less than a CMP Fair. I have never claimed the pistols CMP may sell are all Fair condition, I said they alluded to selling Fair condition pistols starting at $1000 and that $1000 is over priced for a fair conditioned pistol, especially when with a little patience one can get a better example for equal to or less money. [/COLOR]

Please catch up.

CMP alluded they will start Fair condition NOT Good/plus arsenal refurbished, 1911s at $1000.

I did not state how many if any are Fair condition, no one knows.

I simply stated that $1000 was over priced for Fair conditioned 1911s

There are several examples provide by both of us of Good/plus pistols selling below $1000. There were others higher priced but so what, people got caught up in the auction and over bid, happens quite often. Meaning with a little patience a better pistol can be had for less money.

You helped prove my point by posting Good/plus selling for less than $1000.
With those Good/plus examples selling under $1000 you claim that CMP pricing Fair condition 1911s at $1000 is considered under value.

[mosinnagantm9130]

\

NO - auction prices from 2005 are EVEN LOWER - WHICH IS WHY I INCLUDED THEM.

And I ONLY showed actual final-end sales, not some trumped up reserve-auctions with a low starting bid, where the posts teetsjones showed only the opening bid required on a reserve-auction as the final price.

He's got a few that are close to what can be expected, but those are showing prices ranging from $850 to $1,200 - AS SOLD - and simply supports the foundation for a $1,000 price for the CMP rack-grade 1911 as accurate.

Regardless, if you are so misinformed that you wouldn't know a CMP rack grade from a Bubba'ed redo, nor would you have any interest in the first place, quit moaning and whining about the $1,000 asking price and simply stay clear the day they open these up for sale.

Fair enough?

Thank you. I would appreciate the favor.

Whoa there, pump the brakes on the emotion train. Relax.

Market prices from 2005 are irrelevant to this discussion. Doesn't matter what you are talking about, that was 11 years ago, this is now.

As I see it, Milsurp posted some very nice arsenal refurb pistols with an average price of $1214. None of the ones I clicked on from his links were even close to rack grade, those would likely be service grade.

I'm not saying $1200 for a service grade, papered CMP arsenal rebuild is too much. I'm saying $1000 for a rack grade is. Regardless, I'm sure there will be plenty who will pay that price, even if you could get a much better condition pistol (as milsurp posted) for only slightly more.

[teetsjones]

Of course - the value NOW would be higher.



First, you are posting a lot of guns that are not comparable. Also, you are not posting the actual HIGHEST or even WINNING bid, but instead you are indicating the low starting bid as the price in your list - you don't know how Gunbroker works do you?

Obviously you did not follow the links as I listed the highest bid, several were under the reserve price, which show how much the bidders valued the gun. Remember something is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. It is you who seems unclear of the concept.

Such as:



You are posting the required starting bid prices on reserve-auctions of what did not end as the known price; such as, the very 2nd and 3rd auctions above you listed - went several times without a sale, and high bids were well above $1500. Keep clicking on each time is shows "Click here to view the new listing".

Really!? Pay attention, I posted those example to show that's the amount someone was willing to pay, on the second example the starting bid was $500 the final bid was $550 and it did not meet reserve. I prefaced my list with this "There are several that did not meet reserve, but the high bid indicates what people think the gun is worth." Have someone read it out loud and explain it to you. That gun has been listed 23 times so far


So on the 2nd one you posted, this auction went to $1,950.00 - NOT $550 as you stated as the "high bid" - whereby the Buy Now! Price was $1,995.00 - so the seller merely has set his reserve price as his buy-it-now price - but you are playing a shell-game by showing it's price as $550.

Sure maybe on a different listing but the one I posted the highest bid was $550 and did not meet reserve. pull up the link, that particular listing never went to 1950, aand the buy it now on the listing I posted was 2149. You are looking at a re listing which I did not see or link.

Be honest:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=535167741
That gun has been listed 23 times so far and still not sold


And the third one that you say only went to $575 was even stated as an older re-blue, and sold at $1,599.99 - link below - where anyone can tell from the photos that was a refinished gun:

in the listing I posted it did only go to 575, the gun failed many times. The majority of bidders wouldn't bid to high on that gun. That gun listed 11 times many with no bids would you buy that gun at that price?A sucker would and the buyer found one after 11 listings

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=533921516

Yes It did after many re listings most with no bids, the seller found a sucker.


I would rather have a rack-grade untouched, then a Bubba refinish.
Like this one? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=521565107

I intentionally did NOT include guns that did not end in a sale. I included auctions going back up to ten years, because inevitably, values go UP not DOWN, and if something in rough condition sold for $1,000 a decade ago, there is no doubt it will sell for more now.

Where as I did, because it shows what the majority of people will pay for an item rather than what some random idiot will finally pay. It's a much more honest and accurate measure. A greay exmle are those two auctions mentioned earlier for 23 and 11 listings to finally sell those crappy guns. In response to your sold for $1000 ten years ago will sell for more now, is not always true. A crappy AR that sold for $2000 5 years ago ain't going to sell for that now. Even with collectibles, over time collectors become more astute, and picky while there are some who will pay high for junk their numbers decline over time.


The mean on each of your figures being $1,000 aside for incorrect reporting of the final price or incomparable guns, which merely proves $1,000 is fair market value on the CMP rakc-grade, many of those are "refurbished" or refinished - not comparable to a CMP gun that has never been released to the public before. And your condition or grade is all over the place. Have you ever even seen a "rack grade" 1911 from CMP before?

Actually it shows a better picture across the board the market for the 1911. The final price only shows what someone may finally pay. In some cases it is a ridiculous amount for the gun being offered. Just because one person over pays for a gun is no indication of the true value. Remember some of those auctions were relisted many times until the item sold. The one that's been listed 23 times still hasn't sold, but all the listings reveal the prices some are willing to pay. I go by the fact CMP lists Rack grade as Fair. There were examples of Arsenal Refurbished guns included in my list that wee in good/plus condition that sold for less than $1000, yet you like others want to claim a Fair grade CMP is worth as much or more as a good/plus arsenal refurbished pistol on the open market. Pure delusion



No - again, you are neither reporting the actual final sale prices on most all of the links examples you showed, and you are saying "fair" condition in comparison to refinished, or redone by Bubba, or obviously guns with flaws and refinished that can be seen in the photos - and you are posting prices based on the starting bid price.

I can go back and post all the failed re listings until that particular gun sold, but all that shows is that eventually the buyer found a sucker honestly would you pay that amount for that gun?

You are also including a lot of Remington Rands. Everyone knows the Remington Rands are the lowest valued of all the USGI guns, and they can often be found in great condition. Many, many were made. Even excellent condition Rands typically only go for $1,000 to $1,500 - so should be excluded. Yes, a rack-grade Rand won't be worth much more than $500, nor would I be interested in one at that price either. :Shrug:

And you don't think Remington Rands are not going to make up a majority of guns the CMP will sell? LMAO exclude them even though they will be the majority of guns the CMP will likely sell. Are you actually serious? I can't think a better example due to them being so common. Are you that desperate to prove a point? Holy crap what an enormous lack of common sense. So with the statement you made above you are claiming since Remington Rands are so common it is unlikely CMP will have any to sell We both know they will and we both can speculate they will be the most common. Now another person makes my argument for me, $1000 is too much for a Fair condition 1911 more so in your own words $500 is too much.



NO - auction prices from 2005 are EVEN LOWER - WHICH IS WHY I INCLUDED THEM.

And I ONLY showed actual final-end sales, not some trumped up reserve-auctions with a low starting bid, where the posts teetsjones showed only the opening bid required on a reserve-auction as the final price.
Don't lie I showedthe highest bids made for those listigs.Not the opening bid. Please be honest in your statements. Just because some idiot finally over paid for acrappy gun is no indicater what the gun is worth to the general market. Why don't you Tell us how many times that gun was re listed before the buyer found a sucker?

He's got a few that are close to what can be expected, but those are showing prices ranging from $850 to $1,200 - AS SOLD - and simply supports the foundation for a $1,000 price for the CMP rack-grade 1911 as accurate.

Remember some of those "as sold" were good/plus arsenal refurbished selling less than the $1000 for a Fair rade CMP. So if paying the same or more for a lesser quality gun supports the price you are deluded

Regardless, if you are so misinformed that you wouldn't know a CMP rack grade from a Bubba'ed redo, nor would you have any interest in the first place, quit moaning and whining about the $1,000 asking price and simply stay clear the day they open these up for sale.

Be honest, I provided examples of good/plus condition arsenal refurbished 1911's selling for less than a rack/fair grade CMP proposed price. Far be it for me to stand between a fool and his money. But if you want to ignore the fact that you can get a non bubba'd arsenal build 1911 for less than CMPs lowest grade have at it, just don't be dis honest about it to rationalizs your willingnes to over pay for something.

Fair enough?

Thank you. I would appreciate the favor.

I doubt you will read what I posted above as you did not read the preface of the post you are quoting here. Which was made quite obvious form several of your un informed statements.

[teetsjones]

Whoa there, pump the brakes on the emotion train. Relax.

Market prices from 2005 are irrelevant to this discussion. Doesn't matter what you are talking about, that was 11 years ago, this is now.

As I see it, Milsurp posted some very nice arsenal refurb pistols with an average price of $1214. None of the ones I clicked on from his links were even close to rack grade, those would likely be service grade.

I'm not saying $1200 for a service grade, papered CMP arsenal rebuild is too much. I'm saying $1000 for a rack grade is. Regardless, I'm sure there will be plenty who will pay that price, even if you could get a much better condition pistol (as milsurp posted) for only slightly more.

I think some people have deluded themselves into thinking the CMP rack grades are equal to service grades and higher.

I think the emotion stems from them viewing us like the Big Bad Wolf trying to blow their house down.

I am old enough to remember shopping for surplus 1911s and Mauser C96's at the Old Sacramento Armory. !911's went from $150 to $400. C96s went from $85 to $350. I recall a C96 with a 1/2" V shaped chunk missing from the end of the barrel, priced at $85.

[highpower]

I think most of the foot-stomping is by those that were fully expecting these 1911's were going to be sold at bargain basement prices. Now they are having a fit because they are going to be sold at a price point that is higher than they like. All this pissing and moaning over the price is going to change nothing.

Really guys, it is easy: If you think they are too expensive, don't buy one. But please stop crying and give it a rest....

[ccandgc]

I think most of the foot-stomping is by those that were fully expecting these 1911's were going to be sold at bargain basement prices. Now they are having a fit because they are going to be sold at a price point that is higher than they like. All this pissing and moaning over the price is going to change nothing.

Really guys, it is easy: If you think they are too expensive, don't buy one. But please stop crying and give it a rest....

Pretty simple, huh!

[joefrank64k]

I think most of the foot-stomping is by those that were fully expecting these 1911's were going to be sold at bargain basement prices. Now they are having a fit because they are going to be sold at a price point that is higher than they like. All this pissing and moaning over the price is going to change nothing.



Really guys, it is easy: If you think they are too expensive, don't buy one. But please stop crying and give it a rest....

Exactly...assuming the CMP ever gets these in inventory...they will be a complete sellout.

There's a lot of money floating around out there, and lots of folks who would love a chance to add a CMP-papered, non-bubba, US Property-marked 1911 to their stable.

[I Swan]

I like the fact that if I buy one from Gunbroker or especially in person I am seeing exactly what I am getting and not just taking any random gun the CMP sends me. I do feel there is some emotional attachment involved why many people want to buy the gun from the CMP.

What do you all think CMP papers add to the value like 5% or so?

[CALI-gula]

Regardless, if you are so misinformed that you wouldn't know a CMP rack grade from a Bubba'ed redo, nor would you have any interest in the first place, quit moaning and whining about the $1,000 asking price and simply stay clear the day they open these up for sale.

Fair enough?

Thank you. I would appreciate the favor.

I think most of the foot-stomping is by those that were fully expecting these 1911's were going to be sold at bargain basement prices. Now they are having a fit because they are going to be sold at a price point that is higher than they like. All this pissing and moaning over the price is going to change nothing.

Really guys, it is easy: If you think they are too expensive, don't buy one. But please stop crying and give it a rest....

These pretty much nail it in summary. Not much more needs to be said. It's like the repeat thread of tantrums complaining about prices in the marketplace every week. Buy, or don't. Pissing and moaning might make you feel better, but it's not up for a vote.



.

[Orlando]

.

What do you all think CMP papers add to the value like 5% or so?

Actually CM papers do add value. Just look how papered CMP Garands sell faster and at a higher price than those who do not

[CALI-gula]

Actually CM papers do add value. Just look how papered CMP Garands sell faster and at a higher price than those who do not

Exactly. it does.

.

[major burnout]

WTB military re-arsenaled 1911A1. Willing to pay up to $700.

Bump

[major burnout]

WTH-

Want to hire shill. Do you think you can sell ice to Eskimos? If yes I have a job for you. Need someone to advocate for market price fixing. Looking to drive down the price of collectable firearms. Some sort of firearms knowledge a must. Have plenty of unpaid shills working already. If you want to get paid you have to know what youre talking about.

PM resume.

[I Swan]

Actually CM papers do add value. Just look how papered CMP Garands sell faster and at a higher price than those who do not

I'm well aware of that. But on average how much more?