C&R license question

[MosinVirus]

While I still agree with Trickster's interpretation, I withdraw my FUD assertion regarding your post. The verbiage is confusing and could reasonably be interpreted differently depending on who you ask.

Thank you. I wish I was wrong. Then I wouldn't be out over $200 for the transfer + other fees. I got my COE for this specific reason, to be able to get things shipped directly. Then in 2015 that new section was added... And my first online purchase this year was not a "Ship to me directly". It was a PITA.
All because the sender's dealer called DOJ. The guy simply didn't want to get in trouble with CA DOJ, or something like that. Understandable. Then DOJ confirmed everything they said to him.

[MosinVirus]

So,,... Anyone had their form rejected yet?

Why would the form be rejected? You still use the form for things you bring in over the border. And I think you still use the older form for in-state aquisitions

[Tumerboy]

Basically, even with a COE in addition to a C&R, when buying things from out of state and shipping them, they all have to go to 01 FFL
You can no longer receive long guns directly in mail.

Incorrect. With a C&R and a COE, C&R rifles may be shipped directly to your door. C&R handguns must still go through an FFL01 but you are exempt from the 10 day wait.

+1. Utter FUD. RDFact is correct.

Folks should do their homework before they post incorrect and confusing nonsense like that.

We just had a big discussion about the legalities of this over in the 2A board: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1118308

Our conclusion was that the PCs contradict themselves, and while 27585 allowed it, 27565 made it illegal again (as of Jan 1 2015), and thus, it is not legal.

Do you have extra knowledge of penal codes we are overlooking which would make this action legal?


Edit: Caught up, and I see the other thread has been mentioned/referenced a bunch already.

And I'm still just as confused . . .

[TRICKSTER]

This is how I see it.

Can we agree that 27966 exempts C&R + COE holders from having to use a California dealer and their procedures to purchase a C&R long guns?

27966.

Commencing January 1, 2014, if all of the following requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:

(a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.

(b) The firearm is not a handgun.

(c) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.

(d) The person receiving the firearm has a current certificate of eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710.

(e) The person receiving the firearm is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued thereto.

(f) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person to whom it is transferred shall forward by prepaid mail, or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant to this section shall be provided to them by the department.

Now lets break down 27585

27585. (a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state
shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport
into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise
obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state
unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this
state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set
forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700)
and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to or affect any of the
following:
(1) A licensed collector who is subject to and complies with
Section 27565.

(a) basically sets the requirement that no one shall import a firearm into the state without going through a dealer transfer as listed in the law. 27966. exempts those with a 03FFL + COE from having to go through a California dealer transfer for C&R long guns.

Now lets look at section (b)(1).

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to or affect any of the
following:
(1) A licensed collector who is subject to and complies with
Section 27565.

Note that it doesn't just state a licensed collector who complies with, it states a licensed collector that "who is subject to and complies with".


So who is subject to section 27565? Lets look at the section.

27565. (a) This section applies in the following circumstances:
(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44
(commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code
and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.
(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a
handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.
(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm
outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j)
of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by
Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.
(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11
of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state
under the circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed
collector shall report the acquisition of that firearm to the
department in a format prescribed by the department.

Look at sections (3) and (4). In order to be "subject to" this section, one must have taken possession of the firearm out of state. This section basically is what allows us to purchase firearms out of state, in person and bring them back and register them.

So to import a firearm in from out of state one must either according to 27585. (a) go through a California dealer ( Something that 27966 exempts a 03FFL+COE holder from doing for C&R long guns).

or

As a C&R holder, go out of state, purchase the C&R gun and bring it back under the terms of 27585.(b)(1) therefore be subject to section 27565. (a)
when making the purchase and bringing it back.

[rdfact]

(3) states handgun. So does this whole section apply to handguns only?

27565. (a) This section applies in the following circumstances:
(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44
(commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code
and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.
(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a
handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.
(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm
outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j)
of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by
Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.
(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11
of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state
under the circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed
collector shall report the acquisition of that firearm to the
department in a format prescribed by the department.

[TRICKSTER]

(3) states handgun. So does this whole section apply to handguns only?

27565. (a) This section applies in the following circumstances:
(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44
(commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code
and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.
(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a
handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.
(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm
outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j)
of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by
Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.
(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11
of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state
under the circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed
collector shall report the acquisition of that firearm to the
department in a format prescribed by the department.

I think you missed the part I put in bold..

[rdfact]

I know what you mean. I had the same issue with the text. But if you look at how 27565 reads, it reads continuously. See number 2 for example.


2. Premises of THAT person. How do you use that by itself?


And again, I am simply discussing what I learned having gone through this myself recently, when I got my Winchester 1895 Russian on GunBroker. Everything was going fine. seller said they will ship, I sent them my C&R and COE copies, they went to their dealer to send from, the dealer called the DOJ, and said they can't ship to me directly as of 1/1/2015. I then called the same person in licensing they talked to, and argued for a while. Was told, nope, this is the case now. Everything goes to dealer. Main reason given was "Public Safety" and having to go through Safe Handling Demonstration... I pointed out that my COE exempts me from SHD, and the lady said, yes, it does. I asked, so why is this shipping to a dealer? She said, because the laws have changed in 2015.

I actually had the same issue last month. The seller in Florida called the DOJ and was told this is a no-no as of 1/1/15. Maybe it was the same person at DOJ? I sent the seller various parts of the penal code discussed in this thread and apparently "convinced" them so they shipped it.

The bigger online sellers like Classic and AIMs are apparently OK with it so maybe they have had their lawyers dissect this bless direct sales to C&R and COE holders?

[rdfact]

I think you missed the part I put in bold..

Yep. DUH

[TRICKSTER]

I actually had the same issue last month. The seller in Florida called the DOJ and was told this is a no-no as of 1/1/15. Maybe it was the same person at DOJ? I sent the seller various parts of the penal code discussed in this thread and apparently "convinced" them so they shipped it.

The bigger online sellers like Classic and AIMs are apparently OK with it so maybe they have had their lawyers dissect this bless direct sales to C&R and COE holders?

CA DOJ is infamous for spreading false info.

[six seven tango]

...Now lets look at section (b)(1).



Note that it doesn't just state a licensed collector who complies with, it states a licensed collector that "who is subject to and complies with".


So who is subject to section 27565? Lets look at the section.



Look at sections (3) and (4). In order to be "subject to" this section, one must have taken possession of the firearm out of state. This section basically is what allows us to purchase firearms out of state, in person and bring them back and register them.

So to import a firearm in from out of state one must either according to 27585. (a) go through a California dealer ( Something that 27966 exempts a 03FFL+COE holder from doing for C&R long guns).

or

As a C&R holder, go out of state, purchase the C&R gun and bring it back under the terms of 27585.(b)(1) therefore be subject to section 27565. (a)
when making the purchase and bringing it back.

Now, that's the best breakdown and explanation I've seen on this since the issue poked it's ugly head up. I can now see how 27966 still applies to us. Thank you.

What do we have to do to convince the phone answerers at DOJ that the 27966 exemption still exists?

[cruddymutt]

Yes I think Trickster nailed it.

[TRICKSTER]

While I still agree with Trickster's interpretation, I withdraw my FUD assertion regarding your post. The verbiage is confusing and could reasonably be interpreted differently depending on who you ask.

Ditto. One must read all the sections that apply which means searching and jumping back and forth all over the penal code which can get confusing. It is much easier when you actually have the pertinent sections in print to look at and refer to.

[TRICKSTER]

Now, that's the best breakdown and explanation I've seen on this since the issue poked it's ugly head up. I can now see how 27966 still applies to us. Thank you.

What do we have to do to convince the phone answerers at DOJ that the 27966 exemption still exists?

I think that trying to get DOJ employees to know the law is a lost cause. They sometimes still tell people that a CFLC number is needed when a C&R long gun is shipped from an out of state dealer to a O3 FFL holder even though the law specifically exempts C&R long guns from the CFLC program altogether.

ARTICLE 5. Exceptions to the Requirement of Obtaining a Verification Number [27805 - 27835] ( Article 5 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )


27820.

If all of the following requirements are satisfied, Section 27555 does not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:

(a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.

(b) The firearm is not a handgun.

(c) The firearm is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date but is not a replica, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.
(Added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. Effective January 1, 2011. Operative January 1, 2012, by Sec. 10 of Ch. 711.)

[1bulletBarney]

Lol, I saved Trickster's explanation in his post #34 to my favorites. Based on this interpitation, I believe there is enough in the PC (27966/27585/27565) for a defense attorney to challenge the CA DOJ should the DOJ try to bring up any charges against a FFL03 & COE holder for having a C&R longgun shipped to the address on their FFL03 license...

We are almost in October 2015 and the vendors like Classic and the CMP continue to ship C&R longguns to CA FFL03 & COE holders. They have legal teams well versed in CA Law and I think if this was a issue vendors would not ship to CA FFL03 & COE holders, period. Other than DOJ telling inquiring callers FUD in regards to the PC, no action has been taken by the DOJ. DOJ has been accepting C&R self registration for these transactions all this time...

I will hold Trickster harmless if I am wrong, but his expanation is simple and it makes sense. This seems reasonable to me...

[Freedom_shooter]

BOF4542A
BOF961
BOF4100A

Which form is the correct one?
I been buying from dealers a lot and only one PPT. I haven't gone out of state.
I don't want the DOJ knocking on my door, which one can I send in or do I send them all?

Thanks in advance!