Prince 50 vs Bullet Button vs MMG vs U15

[edittman1]

I think you guys are living in fantasy land personally. But you're entitled to your opinion. But please make no mistake, I own, condone, and support rifles with these configurations. I think CA has the most ridiculous laws ever created for gun regulation and control.

I just think it would be a little foolish to be naive enough to believe that you are at zero risk while owning these rifles with their compliance add-on items. Just because everyone (me included) on this forum interprets one thing one way, that does not mean the DOJ or Attorney Generals of each county will have like minded views.

And the reason that it *could* ultimately fall in the hands of anothers interpretation, is why I believe there is a grey area.

It's kind of like Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice: When is a human life created?

Everyone has an opinion.

But when it comes to these rifles, that opinion will eventually fall in the hands of a judge and the DOJ. $0.02

[DedEye]

Ruin a career? Doubtful.

Look, I have read a LOT about the way which we have all interpreted the law which has been provided to us. But until the DOJ actually disemminates a letter which states OLL's with any of the compliance add on's are legal, I think that they fall in a grey area.

Now let's also be very clear, I own something that falls in this grey area.

I simply made this poll to have better insight as to a fairly educated populace's opinion on their personal interpretations of the law.

In fact, I have one of the less popular compliance add-on items and am likely to go with a Bullet Button next time on my 2nd lower (of which I have 4).

The one thing I do need to go refresh my memory on, is the confiscation of Blackwater's rifle in SoCal and their verdict on his trial or whatever it was.

You may think you asked what people thought was most legally sound, but that isn't the question people are answering.

As for BWO's rifles, all charges were dropped in exchange for the confiscation of two of his AKs. It was the most expedient manner of making the case go away for him with the fewest fees, but it does not imply that his rifles were illegally configured.

[DedEye]

I think you guys are living in fantasy land personally. But you're entitled to your opinion. But please make no mistake, I own, condone, and support rifles with these configurations. I think CA has the most ridiculous laws ever created for gun regulation and control.

I just think it would be a little foolish to be naive enough to believe that you are at zero risk while owning these rifles with their compliance add-on items. Just because everyone (me included) on this forum interprets one thing one way, that does not mean the DOJ or Attorney Generals of each county will have like minded views.

And the reason that it *could* ultimately fall in the hands of anothers interpretation, is why I believe there is a grey area.

It's kind of like Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice: When is a human life created?

Everyone has an opinion.

But when it comes to these rifles, that opinion will eventually fall in the hands of a judge and the DOJ. $0.02

I suppose this could be seen to be like the Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice debate, except that as far as the law is concerned for OLLs there is a very specific, codified definition of what is and what isn't legal. The law does not state explicitly when life is created.

You're running a risk with any semi-auto, centerfire rifle in this state, and it would be naive to think otherwise. Black rifles, ARs and AKs aren't the only rifles that run the risk of confiscation/arrest, and aren't the only potential AWs either. How many old Fudds put flash suppressors on their M1As while turning their noses up at ARs thinking they were in a legally sound position? I remember a few cases of people being told SU16s were "dodgy" legally speaking as well.

[jacques]

Now I don't know how to answer this thread.

[ColdSteel]

Well, all of those choices are legal but it all boils down to personal preference and rifle configuration. I run P50 on all my rifles because I do much of my shooting in Nevada.
I prefer not to be laughed at by my Nevada buddies when I have to use a bullet to drop the mag on my rifle.

If my rifles never left Ca. I'd have a bullet button. It's all personal preference.

[sorensen440]

Well, all of those choices are legal but it all boils down to personal preference and rifle configuration. I run P50 on all my rifles because I do much of my shooting in Nevada.
I prefer not to be laughed at by my Nevada buddies when I have to use a bullet to drop the mag on my rifle.

If my rifles never left Ca. I'd have a bullet button. It's all personal preference.

I was doing the same till I got my b15 last week

[aplinker]

It's kind of like Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice: When is a human life created?

OK... this might be the silliest comparison ever.

Not just because of the choice, but because abortion is 100% legal, given you follow the current legal means. Which is just the opposite of the point you wanted to make, but follows more the reality of the OLL situation.

Lots of choices for ways to legally have your baby/fetus killed, lots of ways to legally build a (neutered) evil baby killing rifle.

Given what's transpired at DOJ and with the few OLL-related arrests, I have no cause to be worried about what the outcome of an arrest will be. The only issue is with ill-informed LE - which is a concern for any firearm ownership (or any other means of asserting one's rights).

[edittman1]

OK... this might be the silliest comparison ever.

Not just because of the choice, but because abortion is 100% legal, given you follow the current legal means. Which is just the opposite of the point you wanted to make, but follows more the reality of the OLL situation.

Lots of choices for ways to legally have your baby/fetus killed, lots of ways to legally build a (neutered) evil baby killing rifle.

Given what's transpired at DOJ and with the few OLL-related arrests, I have no cause to be worried about what the outcome of an arrest will be. The only issue is with ill-informed LE - which is a concern for any firearm ownership (or any other means of asserting one's rights).

Excellent point. Abortion is legal. And whoever wrote that law made sure to prevent any misinterpretation of it. There is a clearly defined rule set which allows a person to act legally when aborting a pregnancy.

And I guess that somewhat helps validate my point. The OLL law is terribly written and open for a lot of interpretation. Good for us, since we can interpret this law to our benefit, sure! But for the person who gets an ill informed person enforcing their misinterpretation of the law, not good.

Anyway, looks like I should buy 3 bullet buttons in case they amend the current law and ban future sales of the bullet button! :X

[aplinker]

Excellent point. Abortion is legal. And whoever wrote that law made sure to prevent any misinterpretation of it. There is a clearly defined rule set which allows a person to act legally when aborting a pregnancy.

And I guess that somewhat helps validate my point. The OLL law is terribly written and open for a lot of interpretation. Good for us, since we can interpret this law to our benefit, sure! But for the person who gets an ill informed person enforcing their misinterpretation of the law, not good.

Anyway, looks like I should buy 3 bullet buttons in case they amend the current law and ban future sales of the bullet button! :X

No offense, but this post makes it pretty clear you have a very poor understanding of how and why OLLs are legal, case law, as well as how legislation and regulations work.

You might want to spend some time researching why it's legal and actually reading the penal code, as well as the relevant court cases.

I might be coming down on you hard, but I get a little worked up when someone who isn't up on the legal logic writes a thread that essentially calls the BB, MMG, etc. "gray." This is precisely why many people become confused. If you don't understand the argument, that doesn't mean it's gray. Spend some more time reading the legal precedence and interpretations, as well as trying to see how DOJ "attempted" to close the doors, then gave up, and you'll have a better understanding.

[nobs11]

MMG.

-The ergonomics are great. Anyone who says otherwise has probably not used one. I'm used to shooting "traditional" rifles like the Garand so MMG feels great. I used to think it looked "weird" but I don't notice that anymore.
-No attachable/detachable crap. Don't put any evil features and there is no way anyone can argue you have an AW. The law says:
"centerfire semi-auto rifle with a detachable magazine and one of the following..." Once you take the "one of the following" part out of the equation, it is very easy to understand or explain.
-Can use prebans.
-Can drop mags all day without a tool.
-No weird looks at the range or traffic stops or having to worry if an uninformed LEO is shooting next to you and gonna bother you about the attachable/detachable BS.

I understand that there is no gray area as far as the BB goes, but people are still confused.

[sorensen440]

MMG.

-The ergonomics are great. Anyone who says otherwise has probably not used one. I'm used to shooting "traditional" rifles like the Garand so MMG feels great. I used to think it looked "weird" but I don't notice that anymore.
-No attachable/detachable crap. Don't put any evil features and there is no way anyone can argue you have an AW. The law says:
"centerfire semi-auto rifle with a detachable magazine and one of the following..." Once you take the "one of the following" part out of the equation, it is very easy to understand or explain.
-Can use prebans.
-Can drop mags all day without a tool.
-No weird looks at the range or traffic stops or having to worry if an uninformed LEO is shooting next to you and gonna bother you about the attachable/detachable BS.

I understand that there is no gray area as far as the BB goes, but people are still confused.

Im going to try the MMG pretty soon here
I dont have the cash to get another upper but I can build up one of my lowers and swap the flash suppressor for a brake and then I can see what all the hype is about
More and more im hearing people say they actually like the MMG better then the PG

[cal3gunner]

I've used MMG on an OLL and a normal pistol grip on a registered lower in 3 gun competition. In the moment, it doesn't really matter, its what you have practiced with and what you are comfortable with. I probably do better with the MMG because I focus more on getting my finger in the right place on the trigger more than holding/controlling the rifle. I don't have to consciously think about it, but I know I use my weak arm/hand more when using the MMG which I think is a good thing.

[edittman1]

No offense, but this post makes it pretty clear you have a very poor understanding of how and why OLLs are legal, case law, as well as how legislation and regulations work.

You might want to spend some time researching why it's legal and actually reading the penal code, as well as the relevant court cases.

I might be coming down on you hard, but I get a little worked up when someone who isn't up on the legal logic writes a thread that essentially calls the BB, MMG, etc. "gray." This is precisely why many people become confused. If you don't understand the argument, that doesn't mean it's gray. Spend some more time reading the legal precedence and interpretations, as well as trying to see how DOJ "attempted" to close the doors, then gave up, and you'll have a better understanding.

No offense taken at all. This is the America. I'm entitled to my opinion and you're entitled to your opinion.

Question:

Do you, or do you not agree that the laws which were intended to ban assault rifles were poorly written, thus allowing for interpretations of the law which have brought us to present with compliance add-ons?

[DedEye]

No offense taken at all. This is the America. I'm entitled to my opinion and you're entitled to your opinion.

Question:

Do you, or do you not agree that the laws which were intended to ban assault rifles were poorly written, thus allowing for interpretations of the law which have brought us to present with compliance add-ons?

Two part answer to your two-part question:

Yes, I agree the laws were poorly written.

No, I do not think that the poor wording of the legislation allows for "interpretation." While poorly worded, strict and absolute compliance with the law is what results in rifles that are equipped with bullet buttons or Monsterman grips. There is no "interpretation" involved.

[motorhead]

i go featureless as i have preban ak 30's.