my ar15 sucks

[bryant]

trigger time and reload

[Sinister_1]

Operator error?

[jonc]

try with irons!

[Beelzy]

try with irons!

Finally,the voice of reason.

[Arnelcheeze]

get rid of that Simmons.

[rabagley]

If you want a shooter that produces really tight groups I don't think the AR is the right platform.
Now a bolt action Remington 700 with say .223 fouled and dialed in you could get less than an inch at 100 yards.

The AR can easily be built as a sub-MOA tack driver with comparable "locked down" accuracy to equivalent to a Rem 700. The place where the Rem 700 would clean up over the AR is on lock time. You need to be still for much longer with the AR (4-8ms vs 11-16ms) to offset the increase in lock time.

Most of my AR's are sub-MOA. A significant fraction of those barrels were turned by Randall or another top-shelf AR barrel maker (compass lake, BCM), but that only increases the cost of the gun by $250-$350.

[ojisan]

try with irons!

...at 25 yards first.
Then put the scope back on and try again at 25 yards and check the results.

I've seen several scopes loose their zero hold on springer air guns lately.
It sure causes a frustrating WTF moment or two until you figure out what's going on.
Brand does not matter, variables seem to loose their zero hold earlier than fixed power scopes.

[G21Shooter]

Why is a DPMS junk and Rock River better - what's the difference? I have neither so am not taking a "mine's better than yours" approach.

It seems to me that even an entry level set up, including the scope, ought to do better than 4" at 100 yds - unless something is broken, not properly mounted.

DPMS AR15s are not known for quality, period. Poor quality componets, incorrecty assembled rifles.

I reccomend that RRA upper because I have one and it's a very good shooter for the price. RRA uses quality stainless Wilson barrels, real tack drivers.

[Striker]

I'm assuming you don't have BUIS on the gun because you haven't mentioned them, correct? Have you let someone else shoot the gun? Were the results the same?

You're going to have to eliminate things one at a time. Start with yourself. Let someone else who is a good rifle shooter shoot the gun. Check results. If that doesn't solve the problem, try BUIS. If that doesn't solve the problem, take the upper off and have an experienced AR armorer look at it.

[pakk]

Thanks for the help. I'll try the scope first. I do have 3 other scopes I can try all of which appeared to perform well on my 22. Unfortunately, I don't think any of them are much better quality than my simmons. I planned to use this upper in our monthly sporting match which allows us to use scopes.

As far as 100 yard ar scopes go, what are you recommendations? Cheaper is better in this situation for me, but I do want to get the job done. I'll only be shooting this at 100 yards.

I'm using burris pepr rings. I did have a cheaper imitation $40 rings, and I noticed no difference, but if the scope is the issue, then I wouldn't.

Remington 700. That is on the to do list. I want to get my ARs situated first. The range I frequent only has a 100 yard range. I have to travel a bit, not much, for longer ranges. Again, it is on the to do list. My club hosts a sporting match and a national match.

It looks like I have some work to do. Thanks for the help.

[Metal God]

With a mil-spec barrel shooting 55/62gr NATO loads, shooting off a brenchrest with optics... you should be able to shoot 1 MOA or better at 100 yards. Unless your setup is pure junk

^^^not true^^^IMHO

The above quote makes it sound like you should be able to pick up any mil-spec AR and shoot LC M193 to 1 MOA or better and that is just not the case .

I have done a bit of testing of different ammos in different firearms . I like to think I can shoot well maybe not great but I have a good idea on how to shoot .

I through a scope on a AR just to see how accurate it was . It's a free floated heavy barrel bla bla bla . With match ammo ( 77gr Federal GMM ) I was able to shoot 1 moa but really no better . I don't remember which was which but all other ammo that day shot 2 to 3 moa . PMC , Lake City , Privi , UMC .I would shoot the cheap stuff and the groups would be 2 or 3 MOA . Every time I put the GMM in my groups would shrink back down to 1 MOA . The quality of you ammo matters a great deal . IMO it was all about that Mil-spec trigger . The amount of creep and level on concentration it took to stay on target while pulling the trigger was much harder then I anticipated.

Why does match ammo matter so much ?

When shooting the cheaper bullets that have less quality control the bullets are not perfectly balanced. Every bullet has a bit of coning motion, or nutation about the trajectory axis. The more nutation a bullet has, the more drag it has. More rpm's caused by fast rifling twists causes more centrifugal forces that cause that nutation. Which means the BC will be less than those perfectly balanced ones. The center of that coning, or nutation, will be above the trajectory axis this can cause inconsistency's from shot to shot . Meaning low quality bullets will wobble in flight and can make a difference in POI . This is usually more pronounced at longer ranges and is not noticed as much at 1 or 2 hundred yards but the problem is still there . Couple that with a long trigger creep , non free floated barrel and maybe not the most perfect form and I can see 3 and 4 MOA out of a other wise mid quality rifle .

OR your rifle and scope are junk

For the 1-9 twist I recommend you find some 69gr Federal GMM and see what the rifle can do . If you still shoot 3 & 4 MOA it is you or the rifle . IMO

[fonzy]

Lets not beat a dead horse. I'm not gonna call your stuff junk.

But as others have stated when trouble shooting anything, from guns to cars, you try the fast and inexpensive items first. You could try a new upper. The problem is that not everyone has another upper handy or a friend that lets you borrow his. Even if you do shoot better with another upper it doesn't solve the problem of what's wrong with yours.

Do what others have said and go with the irons first. Then you can isolate it to your optics or your mounts. Also have parallax adjusted although at 100yrds shouldn't do much.

Next. I would inspect the muzzle crown (unloaded) and separate from your lower. Making sure it's not dinged up or something. Then take off your hand guards and make sure your barrel nut is secure.

Some weird thing I have seen although some might not agree. Is the POI shift from holding from hand guards to holding forward on the magazine well. You want to remove any variable that could affect the barrel.

Last put up some pics. We'd love to see your setup. Maybe we can spot something.

All these things will cost $0.00
Throwing money at things doesn't always solve the problem.

[Merc1138]

The OP also needs to start paying attention to how various types of ammo shoot. Sure, 4moa isn't very good, but what ammo was that? What were the good groups and what ammo was used for those?

Also, expecting "milspec" rifles to just all be 1moa capable... lol. That's just nonsense.

[00Medic]

Meh. Easy fix...

Get a MAN'S gun.....





An AK!!

[Dattebayo]

^^^not true^^^IMHO

The above quote makes it sound like you should be able to pick up any mil-spec AR and shoot LC M193 to 1 MOA or better and that is just not the case .

I have done a bit of testing of different ammos in different firearms . I like like to think I can shoot well maybe not great but I have a good idea on how to shoot .

I through a scope on a AR just to see how accurate it was . It's a free floated heavy barrel bla bla bla . With match ammo ( 77gr Federal GMM ) I was able to shoot 1 moa but really no better . I don't remember which was which but all other ammo that day shot 2 to 3 moa . PMC , Lake City , Privi , UMC .I would shoot the cheap stuff and the groups would be 2 or 3 MOA . Every time I put the GMM in my groups would shrink back down to 1 MOA . The quality of you ammo matters a great deal . IMO it was all about that Mil-spec trigger . The amount of creep and level on concentration it took to stay on target while pulling the trigger was much harder then I anticipated.

Why does match ammo matter so much ?

When shooting the cheaper bullets that have less quality control the bullets are not perfectly balanced. Every bullet has a bit of coning motion, or nutation about the trajectory axis. The more nutation a bullet has, the more drag it has. More rpm's caused by fast rifling twists causes more centrifugal forces that cause that nutation. Which means the BC will be less than those perfectly balanced ones. The center of that coning, or nutation, will be above the trajectory axis this can cause inconsistency's from shot to shot . Meaning low quality bullets will wobble in flight and can make a difference in POI . This is usually more pronounced at longer ranges and is not noticed as much at 1 or 2 hundred yards but the problem is still there . Couple that with a long trigger creep , non free floated barrel and maybe not the most perfect form and I can see 3 and 4 MOA out of a other wise mid quality rifle .

OR your rifle and scope are junk

For the 1-9 twist I recommend you find some 69gr Federal GMM and see what the rifle can do . If you still shoot 3 & 4 MOA it is you or the rifle . IMO

Man this makes me kinda sketched out about the AR. Even my .22lr can shoot way better than MOA with bulk ammo.

I was hoping that if I spent top dollar money on everything it would be a tack driver. I am expecting atleast 1/2 MOA and preferably 1/3 MOA with top of the line items.

Is that too much to expect out of an AR?