BCM BCG - Totally shocked by BCM

[HK Dave]

I've had to deal with BCM customer service. Believe it or not, I think they actually do test faulty gear that is sent back. If they can find absolutely nothing wrong with it, what are they supposed to do?

I'm with BCM on this one, if I could not find fault with a product i sold, I'd give the person their money back and add them to my "do not sell to this guy" list.

No disrespect to the OP but you can go to another vendor, BCM isn't the end all.

On another note... here's my customer service experience with BCM.

Buddy had a BCG that wouldn't cycle... we could not for the life of us figure out why... It worked fine and about round 300 it just stopped. We tried it in multiple uppers and it wouldn't cycle. BCM took it, and tried everything they could think of and had the same problem... then they decided to take apart the gas key... found a primer inside the gas key.. somehow went through the gas hole?! They sent him a new one despite the fact that it's like a 1 in a billion chance a primer could do that.

Shoulda bought a lottery ticket that day. :/

[NSR500]

Good for BCM and a smart move in my opinion. Some people are just complainers and have unreasonable expectations. It's better to preserve your reputation than to continue to sell to habitual complainers.

[gordon freeman]

I don't think there's "another side". You are implying that the OP/customer is to blame. But, we have heard plenty from the OP and his story is credible. We have not heard from BCM, but we have heard this same story from others.

BCM is displaying damned arrogance. When things go downhill for an organization, it doesn't happen over night. It starts with the little things. I would be very concerned if I were BCM management.

What else is BCM's arrogance effecting? Is it something that you might end up paying for?

[Sundowner]

OP needs to call and talk to someone at BCM and find out why they refused to do business with him a second time. All this speculating is bs. It could also simply be a mistake. I ordered a camera from B&H Photo before going on a trip. When I got back, I sent a complaint to American Express about a charge on my card from the hotel I stayed in. About six months later I ordered something from B&H and they refused to deal with me. I called and they said it was because I had complained to Amex about them! Stupid credit card company had sent the complaint to the wrong vendor. I straightened it out and they went ahead and shipped my order. Things like that do happen. Also, consider how busy all these firearms vendors are right now. I'll bet a lot of mistakes are being made.

[00foreman]

I don't think there's "another side". You are implying that the OP/customer is to blame. But, we have heard plenty from the OP and his story is credible. We have not heard from BCM, but we have heard this same story from others.

BCM is displaying damned arrogance. When things go downhill for an organization, it doesn't happen over night. It starts with the little things. I would be very concerned if I were BCM management.

What else is BCM's arrogance effecting? Is it something that you might end up paying for?

There's always "another side" to every story. You said it yourself, " we have heard plenty from the OP but nothing from BCM. You're assuming it's arrogance, but there are many more of us out there that have had nothing but good experiences with BCM. If it were myself who had this issue, I would have called them and straitened it out. Or at least figure out why I was on their no sell list.

[peppermintman]

Customer service

Short version. The upper would not pick up the 2nd to last round. Sent it back to them. They said it was my lower causing he problem. So I sold the lower and bought a BCM lower. But still had the same problem. So they graciously said I could send it back for a full refund. I thought my product experience was just that of a "lemon", but their customer service the entire time was excellent. So I am doubly surprised at their response today.

Details here:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=376628

Everyone else I know has no problem with their stuff and I wonder if maybe you had a funky mag or something. Was there some kind of telephone feud going on? Well I just bought a complete upper from them and when I put it on my JD lower I'll let everyone know if it fits correctly or not. I just use normal mags nothing fancy, old military type stuff. I ain't trying to look cute with fancy paint and mags so I'll let you know how everything fits.
They were gracious.....were you?

[Nor*Cal]

If I was the OP, I would have called upon receiving the email to discuss the cancellation. I do think its a poor decision by BCM to cancel an order from a customer because they had an issue a few years back. But it's their right to refuse anyone's business.

I am a satisfied customer and really enjoy shooting my BCM riffle, its a tack driver.

Luckily for the OP, there are plenty more quality options out there besides BCM.

[peppermintman]

Lets see again

DavidRSA DavidRSA is offline
Senior Member

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: SFV
Posts: 1,184
iTrader: 23 / 100%
Default My BCM AR.... I give up...


Bought a BCM complete upper a month or so ago. Put it on my S&W lower. On the 2nd to last round, the bolt would either slide right over the rounds and close, or it would misfeed and cause a jam. This happened on all my 8 magpul pmags. (Never had a this problem with my S&W upper). This is not an issue with blocked pmags, it is with any pmag.

I sent the upper back to BCM. They said they tested it extensively and it was perfect. They said some S&W lowers had some problems in the past. So I bought a BCM lower.

Took it to the range today, EXACT same thing. Plus sometimes the bolt does not stay back on the last round. And IN addition, the trigger is not crisp like the S&W trigger, but grainy-feeling. If you pull it back to just before it breaks and you let go..the trigger just stays there without reverting to the forward position.

I am having a very serious case of buyers remorse. I miss the reliability and the feel of my S&W. But I heard such awesome reviews of BCM from AR enthusiasts. Perhaps there is a vehicle analogy, where S&W is like a Toyota, not so sexy but reliable and smooth running. While BCM is like an Alpha Romeo: not so smooth running and not reliable, but enthusiasts love them.

I dont know what to do now. Randall aka AR-15barrels is going to take a look at it, and hopefully he can solve the feeding problem and perhaps the trigger issue as well. I dont want to sent it back to BCM. I am thinking of simply selling in the marketplace - with full disclosure about my issues . Maybe there is an Alpha Romeo enthusiast out there looking for a BCM.


You bought a new upper from BCM and were using a SW lower. The upper was causing trigger problems?????????

[nickyrr]

Damn that's a dumb policy. I'll try to contact them and try to get a better explanation as to why they did what they did.

[nickyrr]

Per BCM's email... I'd find out who is "we" and try to get their name and directly talk to them.

[FatalKitty]

You bought a new upper from BCM and were using a SW lower. The upper was causing trigger problems?????????

you failed reading comprehension didn't you.

it says he bought a BCM lower and had the same issue

[DavidRSA]

DavidRSA DavidRSA is offline
Senior Member


You bought a new upper from BCM and were using a SW lower. The upper was causing trigger problems?????????

No, if you read the entire post of which that you quoted, you would see that I ordered a BCM lower, upon which I placed the BCM upper. Still had the problem.

As I said before, I wasn't aware at all that there was any problem with me and BCM. They were incredibly helpful with sending the item back for repair, and when it still had problems when I put on the BCM lower, they gave me a refund no problem. Which is why I was surprised to be on some kind of "blacklist".

[DavidRSA]

For those who really want to know... here is the entire email chain start to finish. (I edited out my last name and email address)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bravo Company USA, Inc. <bravocompany@wi.rr.com
Date: Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 4:26 AM
Subject: RE: Problems with My new BCM upper on a S&W lower
To: David Xxxxxxx <xxxxxxx@gmail.com


Hi David,
Sounds good.
Thanks,

-----Original Message-----
From: David Xxxxxxx [mailto:xxxxxxx@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 6:41 PM
To: Bravo Company USA, Inc.
Subject: Re: Problems with My new BCM upper on a S&W lower

Hello there;

Thank you for being so accommodating. I am away on vacation and will
ship it back later next week.

Best Regards,

David Xxxxxxx

On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 4:46 AM, Bravo Company USA, Inc.
<bravocompany@wi.rr.com wrote:
You can send back the upper and BCM BCG for credit.

Please ship to:

Bravo Company
802 Rose Drive
Hartland, WI 53029





-----Original Message-----
From: David Xxxxxxx [mailto:xxxxxxx@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 10:31 PM
To: Bravo Company USA, Inc.
Subject: Re: Problems with My new BCM upper on a S&W lower

Hello there;

Can you replace it with a S&W upper?
Or issue me a credit?

Let me know.

Thanks
David

On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Bravo Company USA, Inc.
<bravocompany@wi.rr.com wrote:
Hi David,
How ? if you don't want to send it back.


-----Original Message-----
From: David Xxxxxxx [mailto:xxxxxxx@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2010 1:23 AM
To: Bravo Company USA, Inc.
Subject: Re: Problems with My new BCM upper on a S&W lower

Hello there;

After your testing below, I decided to get a new BCM lower. I went out
to the range today I am having the exact same problem. Even when using
the pmag you sent back with my upper.

I am using PMC .223 which ran flawlessly on my S&W MP-15T, over 2000
rounds without any issues.

The trigger on the lower also has a gritty feel, and if I pull it to
the point just before it breaks and release it, it just stays there
instead of reverting back to the forward position.

Lastly, the bolt sometimes does not stay locked back on the last round.

I am pretty disappointed overall with my BCM experience. I decided I
wanted the best of the best, and after researching and asking
questions on gun forums, the general consensus was that BCM was
absolutely top tier. But for me, I have just experienced just the
opposite. I wish I hadn't sold my S&W.

I dont want to send this back again for another attempted repair. Is
there any other way you could see me right?


Best Regards,

David Xxxxxxx





On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Bravo Company USA, Inc.
<bravocompany@wi.rr.com wrote:
Hi David,
Had a chance to test it again this afternoon with:
BCM lowers
SW lower
Colt lower
LMT lower

PMAG30 and PMAG20 (various batches).
We have run 100s and 100s of rounds thru the upper.
The issue you found would not replicate in any form.

Your BCM upper/BCG is 100%.
You either have an issue with your SW lower, or the specific PMags you
Are running. Since all other mags worked ok with your SW lower, my first guess would
Be to try a different batch Pmags to see what happens.
(as a note; some very early SW lowers did have issues with Pmags)
-----Original Message-----
From: David Xxxxxxx [mailto:xxxxxxx@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 1:46 PM
To: Bravo Company USA, Inc.
Subject: Re: Problems with My new BCM upper on a S&W lower

Hello there;

Did you get a chance to perform the additional testing?

Best regards
David

On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Bravo Company USA, Inc.
<bravocompany@wi.rr.com wrote:
David,
We can not offer any resolution until we have fully verified the
issues.

We will contact you after we have done more testing.
Possibly today.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Xxxxxxx [mailto:xxxxxxx@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:58 PM
To: Bravo Company USA, Inc.
Subject: Re: Problems with My new BCM upper on a S&W lower

Hi there... if its OK with you I would just rather go with paying in
the difference and getting a similar LMT upper and if there are no LMT
BCG's in stock, then getting a DD BCG... and then whatever you may
charge to move my current DD rail over to the LMT upper.

See your links below.


(http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/LMT-1...er-Group-p/lmt
%2016%20urg.htm

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Daniel-Defense-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M1

6-p/dd%209300.htm)

Let me know if we can do this.

Best regards
David Xxxxxxx



On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 10:30 AM, David Xxxxxxx <xxxxxxx@gmail.com
wrote:
It must be a weird combination of my S&W lower and BCM upper and
pmags.

I also had no issue with other brand mags. A couple of people on
Calguns said they had the exact same thing happen. (see
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=354495)

If you don't notice any problem, then I know once I get the rifle back
I will still continue to have this problem. In that case, could I pay
in the difference and get a similar LMT upper and DD BCG (and I would
kindly request you move my DD rail to the LMT upper)?

Thanks and Best Regards,

David Xxxxxxx





On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Bravo Company USA, Inc.
<bravocompany@wi.rr.com wrote:
Ran it with PMags and GI mags on Fri. It was 100%.
Will be running it again later this week with a different set of
PMags.


-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxxxx@gmail.com [mailto:xxxxxxx@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:35 AM
To: Bravo Company USA, Inc.
Subject: Re: Problems with My new BCM upper on a S&W lower

Hello...any updates with my upper?

Thanks,
David
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: David Xxxxxxx <xxxxxxx@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 09:27:24
To: Bravo Company USA, Inc.<bravocompany@wi.rr.com
Subject: Re: Problems with My new BCM upper on a S&W lower

Hello;

I saw my upper arrived today at your premises. I apologize for being
over-excited about this, but I love my rifle and cant wait to get it
back! Please let me know what the anticipated timeframe is. Also
please note it has my DD rail attached.

Thanks,

David
818-288-0507

On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Bravo Company USA, Inc.
<bravocompany@wi.rr.com wrote:
Hi David,
Not sure, never heard of that kind of problem before.
However we will make sure it runs with PMags.



-----Original Message-----
From: David Xxxxxxx [mailto:xxxxxxx@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 12:13 AM
To: Bravo Company USA, Inc.
Subject: Re: Problems with My new BCM upper on a S&W lower

Hello - a quick update... the issue happens even when I use snap
caps!
Narrowed it down to when I use pmags (I tested all 8 of my pmag
20's)
and it only occurs on the 3rd last or 4th last round. I tried 2
other
brand of mags, no problem.

But these same pmags work fine with my S&W MP15T. Is this something
you
can
fix?

Thanks
David

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 6:09 AM, Bravo Company USA, Inc.
<bravocompany@wi.rr.com wrote:
Could you include the BCG as well.

The prepaid label will come via email later this AM.


-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxxxx@gmail.com [mailto:xxxxxxx@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 7:33 AM
To: Bravo Company USA, Inc.
Subject: Re: Problems with My new BCM upper on a S&W lower

That would be great!!

The BCG I purchased from you along with the upper.

Thanks so much,
David
------Original Message------
From: Bravo Company USA, Inc.
To: David Xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Problems with My new BCM upper on a S&W lower
Sent: Nov 1, 2010 4:42 AM

David,
Sorry about the issues.
Can we send you a prepaid UPS email and bring the upper in here for
inspection?
Also, what type of BCG ?


-----Original Message-----
From: David Xxxxxxx [mailto:xxxxxxx@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 12:20 AM
To: bravocompany
Subject: Problems with My new BCM upper on a S&W lower

Hello...I bought a carbine length upper from you last month, as
well
as a BCG. (Order # 152064 - BCM Standard 16" M4 Carbine Upper
Receiver
Group)

I mounted it on my lower, which is a S&W MP15 lower. My previous
upper was a S&W MP15T

I have had many "jams", looks like a failure to feed. The rounds
can
be seen in the photos below.

http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/ad299/DavidRSA/d2edbcb3.jpg

At first this was happening when I was using 223, but not with
5.56.
But today I spent the entire day in a carbine class and it was
happening with any ammo I tried using, ie PMC 223, Federal XM193,
Tula, Prvi match. I have put about 400-500 rounds through this
upper,
and probably have had 50 such incidents.

A few background facts:

I never had this problem with my S&W upper on this lower, so I dont
think it is the lower that is a problem
Magazines are Magpul, it happened with all my magazines
Everything was well lubed
I did have a Daniel Defense Lite 9.5 rail installed by a reputable
gunsmith, so when he removed the barrel and/or FSB, I guess this
may
have affected the gas system. But he is a very well known and
reputable guy in the LA area.

In any event, if you have any advice or remedies, please let me
know.

Thanks and Best Regards

David Xxxxxxx
818-288-0507




Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

[MXRider]

What you described with your original upper problem was in all likelihood a magazine issue. As to the gritty trigger, new USGI triggers are gritty and kind of suck in general. Your old lower was most likely well worn in and the fire control group was smoother.

If you send something back to BCM, or pretty much any manufacturer, they are going to test it. If it works on their end, what do you expect them to do?

Reliable feeding through an upper, and then failing to feed the 2nd to last round in a consistent manner is a magazine issue. PMag 20's are notorious for this as well as not locking the bolt to the rear, as are most other low capacity magazines. (factory or modified)

My .02, is they didn't feel like dealing with the headache of a user who blamed them for something that wasn't their fault.

[deckhandmike]

Whether you are right or wrong, time equals money and that email sequence look like it sucked up a huge amount of time and money. Can't blame a company for fixing a problem and then deciding business was not profitable with you. I'd be annoyed myself but not shocked that they want to cut their losses and move on.