Piston dilemma; LWRCi Vs. LMT Vs. Barrett? HELP

[SFFRONTMAN]

I have the lmt mrp piston. It runs every kind of ammo including steel case without a problem. I have had 0 problems and couldnt be happier with my purchase.

[Hungarian_Legionnaire]

National Police Supply. Vista, CA is an authorized dealer for LWRC.

They custom order yours to your specs. furniture, color, barrel length, flash hider, Magpul stock w/ cheekriser and length of pull etc You are not limited to what is on website or catalog.

All straight from LWRC. CA compliant. Approx 3 weeks.

http://www.nationalpolicesupply.com/contact.php

Really? I like the M6A2 SPR a lot but think that the 12" rail/ handguard where you can add rail sections at 3, 9 & 6 o'clock positions is too long & would rather have the same rail that comes on the IC but is a 9" rail. Do you think that I could custom order that?

[Hungarian_Legionnaire]

FYI.
A modified version of the Colt 6940P is a contendor in the US Army's Individual Carbine Competition (currently in Phase 2 testing).
There's three gas-piston AR type carbines currently in the competition.
Adcor Defense BEAR Elite, Colt Advanced Piston Carbine and H&K HK-416.
The other carbines currently in the competition also use a gas-piston but they are not AR type carbines.
Beretta ARX-160A2, FN FNAC and Remington ACR.

That's one of the reasons I like the LE6940P because it is the APC, the only difference is that it's semi-auto & the APC has made it to phase 2 testing. As for the FNH FNAC it's just a SCAR with a nonreciprocating charging-handle, the new Remington Defense ACR has a magnesium lower that can accept AR pistol grips & trigger guards (I wish they would sell that lower for the Bushmaster ACR). Beretta defiantly got it right with the ARX-160A2, it's already been fielded in the Middle East, & in use with the Italian Army, SOF & some UK SOF, rumor has it there is going to be a semi-auto ARX 160 in the states, I like it but don't like the stock, it looks grate in FDE, but i'd rather have the FNH FNAC.

[Hungarian_Legionnaire]

I was originally going to go with LMT but there's no guarantee it will cycle wolf. I felt like the gun should be able to cycle wolf just from a functionality standpoint, but realistically I almost never shoot wolf. In retrospect this seems a little silly, but at the time I suppose the ability to shoot wolf was a lot more important to me.

Are you sure there's a significant balance difference? They both seem to have the same stock, so if the LMT rail is lighter what on the rear is heavier? If the LMT balances significantly better for you I can see that being a deal breaker for LWRC. I often wish my LWRC was lighter but I don't see a practical way without getting rid of the rails (or switching to the M6-SL).

The top rail should return to zero, but I've never shot accurately enough with irons to notice. I use an ACOG so the BUIS are zeroed but I never bother trying to get groups small enough to tell if the sight drifted a few MOA or not. The screws will back out during firing, though, which can be fixed with locktite. I'm no expert marksman but I can shoot ~1MOA with M855.

For reference, here's the parts replacement schedule for LWRC:

Barrel: 20k rounds
Bolt Springs: 10k rounds
Piston Springs, Spring Cup: 3-5k rounds

LWRC recommends a flatwire buffer spring. I don't know the life expectancy (in rounds) of that. I put an LWRC upper on my lower so I can't speak to the FCG coating, but the bolt does stay extremely clean. It's possible you wouldn't need the coating on the LMT if the bolt stays as clean as my LWRC, which is good because I don't know if I'd trust someone to strip and re-coat a BCG. The piston parts didn't get that dirty, but they take a bit of finesse to remove.

At the end of the day I've had zero problems (jams, misfires, broken parts, etc) with my LWRC. It's a little heavy and the top rail needs locktite, but that's all I can find to nit pick. I'd be hesitant to buy anything else again knowing what I know now, but there are advantages to the others that might mean more to you than me (weight, quick change barrel, etc).

I wasn't aware that LMT was known for not functioning reliably with WOLF, but with the 1:7 barrel I wouldn't shoot WOLF, I have a few 1000 cases of new production 2012 Federal Lake City M855 62gr. Green Tip Penetrator, all the piston AR's I am inserted in have a 1:7 twist barrel, I HOPE whatever I choose to get loves this ammo.

Maybe it's just me with the balance of the LMT & LWRC (but the M6A2's rail is heavier), if you want the M6A2 but lighter you should check out the M6A2 SPR:

http://www.lwrci.com/p-250-m6a2-spr.aspx#inf-tabs

it's much lighter that the standard M6A2, it's spiral fluting shaves 20% of the weight off the standard barrel, the weight reduction in the front end make for an incredibly well balanced rifle. The sculpted rail has user configurable rail sections that can be added to 3, 6 & 9 o'clock as needed (instead of always having a quad rail & not needing it), but LWRCi sells 3 full length rails to turn it in to a quad rail. It handles very nicely & has an incredibly light swing weight.

The company that does the NiB coating also does it for LWRCi, if they trust them to coat a BCG & fire control group I would too. that's great that you haven't experienced any malfunctions of any kind with your M6A2, how many rounds do you have threw it & have you had to replace any parts on LWRC's recommended replacement schedule?

I do like the LMT CQB MRP, but I don't really care for the quick change barrel system, it's not like I'm going to be going threw barrels, or pay to have an SBR, my only concern with that is will the barrel ever come loose. IMO the only rifle to get the quick barrel change done right was the Steyr AUG, it can be done in seconds without tools & has no adverse affects on accuracy.

... If you ever get around to checking the zero of your BUIS i'd like to know if the rail portion that comes off actually holds it's zero, also have you called LWRCi about the two screws that hold that rail on? You shouldn't need to put locktite on them, they are suppose to stay in place with rubber o-rings (I think), maybe you just need a new set?

Thanks for the detailed comment on your experiences with your M6A2.

[Hungarian_Legionnaire]

I have the lmt mrp piston. It runs every kind of ammo including steel case without a problem. I have had 0 problems and couldnt be happier with my purchase.

How many rounds do you have threw it, & it will run everything you feed it including WOLF? What kind of accuracy are you getting with the 62-67gr. ammo? Thanks

[Hungarian_Legionnaire]

I don't really understand why someone would spend huge money on a rifle like one of these.

I know they are all very nice but I'm not convinced that they are going to work any better than a DI rifle that you keep well oiled and try not to fill up with sand.

I would rather have a quality $1,000 DI AR with 2,000 rounds of ammo (brass case), carbine course tuition, a bunch of magazines, good optics, a big bottle of lube and maybe some tactical nylon.

You can get all that for the price of some of the rifles suggested.

You might not be the envy of the gun range or good to go in a zero-visibility sand storm but I think you get more for your money with my option.

None of the piston AR choices I have made have been made out of being envied on the range, that's a ridiculous remark to make.

Also if the DI Legacy AR was doing as well as you make it out to be then the US Military wouldn't be spending millions trying to find a replacement, there wouldn't be a need for the The US Army's Individual Carbine Competition, which is at phase two & all contenders are of the piston operated type.

Reliability is what I am looking for in an AR Wash, & my idea of reliability in an AR is to not to "Sh1t where you eat", why have to worry about keeping a DI AR's BCG "wet"? Having all that unburnt powder, carbon fouling & heat dumped in to the most vital part of my rifle when just doing a 3 day advanced carbine course, or going to the shooting range would "bother me", but I would NOT trust my life to a DI AR going in to combat in Afghanistan or Iraq with that system. (I've already had two tours in LeStan, with a completely different weapon system, that I did trust my life with)

...Would you? Or would you want a cooler, cleaner running & more reliable piston AR?

[wash]

I would be perfectly content to take one of my DI ARs to war.

I usually go more than 500 rounds between cleanings and just add a little oil if I let it get too dry and it hiccoughs. If I was in a war, oiling it every day and cleaning it occasionally, it would never miss a beat.

Of course that's assuming I would have decent ammo that burns clean.

The worst malfunction I've ever seen in a good AR was a gas piston rifle with a steel case stuck in the chamber and the rim ripped off of it. Instant stoppage and the case needed to get pounded out with a cleaning rod. But it was a gas piston system and I bet that bolt carrier was clean!

It's not quite Afghanistan but my DI ARs have worked out at Coalinga and over there the wind makes it impossible to keep dust and tumbleweeds out of your action.

The supposed lack of reliability of DI ARs is grossly exaggerated, probably by soldiers that don't fire or maintain their rifle nearly enough to know what is going on.

Those rifles you mention are very nice, finely made and probably as reliable as any AR but I don't think the value proposition is all that great.

Also, I never said you want to be the envy of the range. I said a $1,000 AR isn't going to make you the envy of the range. Lots of people have $1,000 ARs and a good one can look extremely ordinary.

An important point to consider is that the military has been looking to replace the M4/M16 rifle for quite a long time but they still haven't done it. They spend billions on stealth bombers but can't justify spending money to issue a new assault rifle or adopt a new caliber even though they have been trying to for years.

As wasteful as our military can be they still look at cost/benefit ratios and choose the M4 and M16A2/A3.

[Brick562]

How does the LWCi compare to the Adams Arms? I love my AA, but who knows what my next purchase will be...

I don't want to thread jack, but would like to have a frame of reference. I've googled a bit, but haven't found any solid answers.

[wash]

Looking at the guts of the various short stroke gas piston systems and the FN FAL, in my opinion the AA system looks as good as any if you take steps to ensure carrier tilt does not occur and your cam pin doesn't tear up the inside of your upper (their bolt spring probably takes care of that).

The only weakness I see is the skinny gas piston but there isn't room to make it bigger and they don't seem to break so my concern is probably unwarranted.

The bottom line is that gas piston systems replace a direct impingement system that doesn't break with a gas piston system that seems reliable.

That's not buying much.

[Brick562]

Looking at the guts of the various short stroke gas piston systems and the FN FAL, in my opinion the AA system looks as good as any if you take steps to ensure carrier tilt does not occur and your cam pin doesn't tear up the inside of your upper (their bolt spring probably takes care of that).

The only weakness I see is the skinny gas piston but there isn't room to make it bigger and they don't seem to break so my concern is probably unwarranted.

The bottom line is that gas piston systems replace a direct impingement system that doesn't break with a gas piston system that seems reliable.

That's not buying much.

I appreciate the general discussion, but I am looking for specifics on the difference in engineering between the two, as well as any other quality considerations.

As for it not being a value added proposition, I don't remember this thread being titled "Which is the best Piston system, Piston or DI." Many people choose to buy DI, and that is awesome. Some people also buy lever action rifles. Those are great too. Muskets, also awesome. But this thread seems to comparing piston to piston AR's. Thanks.

[gat]

Thanks for the detailed comment on your experiences with your M6A2.

Glad to help.

I was originally going to replace the rail on my M6A2 with a Samson Evolution, but it turns out the Samson doesn't quite fit. It rubs against the gas block and deflects off a few degrees. Either I'd need to shave the gas block or the rail, or deal with the fact the rail is angled upwards. I decided instead to stick with the stock rails.

I don't have any rubber o-rings on my rail screws. I guess I can ask their support or post on the forums and find out, I just assumed everyone's was like that.

The website says the M6A2 and M6A2 SPR are only 0.1 lbs difference, but that doesn't seem right given the description of the uppers. I don't love the spiral fluting but now that I look at it again, I probably would have been happier with one of those.

It looks like the IC model has some upgrades, and the front sight mounts to the gas block, so there's no re-zeroing after cleaning. Looked into that model at all?

Edit: Looks like I only have ~512 rounds through my LWRC. I hate living so far away from an outdoor range. No maintenance other than cleaning so far, but also no failures.

[jcslone]

The USMC MARSOC uses LWRCi M6A2's? Like MEU(SOC)/ Force Recon? I have never herd of the Marines using anything other than M4A1's & M16A3 with an ACOG... I do know that the First M6A2's issued were with the 75th Rangers, I don't know how many but 75th Rangers were to take LWRC's M6A2 in to combat. Operational Detachment Dealt & DEA F.A.S.T Team both used the M6A2 in both Iraq & Afghanistan, undergoing some rigorous testing & outperforming the Legacy M4A1 & M16A3's in adverse conditions.

Yup...MARSOC falls under SOCOM, therefore they get whatever the heck they want (I've seen some crazy awesome toys so far...). It was a 14.5" barreled M6 with an ELCAN Spectre DR 1-4x on it with a Doctor reflex on top of the Elcan...most spiffy indeed..

Now addressing OP's questions...the LWRCi piston system is one of the most well researched, built, and reliable ones on the market. And from what I've heard from other shooters as well as my own personal experience, the recoil impulse is not bad at all and the weapon feels, well, like an extension of your body rather than just something that you're holding. Best thing you can do is find people who own the models you're interested in and see if you can try them out.

[Hungarian_Legionnaire]

How does the LWCi compare to the Adams Arms? I love my AA, but who knows what my next purchase will be...

I don't want to thread jack, but would like to have a frame of reference. I've googled a bit, but haven't found any solid answers.

LWRCi is a company that ONLY makes & specializes in piston operated AR's, they make them for many US & UK Special Forces & Gov. Agencies. Over many years of hard testing, research & development LWRCi has got the piston operated AR down to a science. They have been manufacturing & bettering their components down to every detail longer than any other piston operated AR manufacture in the world.

Adam's Arms is a piston retro fit kit, which have only been around since 2008, from what I've herd about bent Op-rods, carrier tilt & out of spec gas blocks & other issues, I couldn't say anything positive about Adams Arms because of their problems...

There is no comparison between LWRCi & Adam's Arms. You can search for these problems all over the net, in many forums.

[starsnuffer]

HK. Barring that, the LWRC.

-W

[Masada86]

I've always really liked the LMT guns I've held and shot. Can't say enough good things about that Monolithic Rail system on top of it!