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Daniel Defense or Rock River Arms?

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  • #46
    dieselpower
    Banned
    • Jan 2009
    • 11471

    Originally posted by RONIN.
    been watching this thread unfold, and now i finally figured out a nice way to give my opinion.

    i own many different ar15 and lr308 rifles, all of which serve different purposes for me. but when looking at the rra tactical operator2, vs a dd..

    i will say this, that tac operator 2 does not meet any of my criteria for a "operator" style carbine. 1/9 twist barrel, non-chrome lined bore & chamber. a OPERATOR style carbine, NORMALLY gets shot ALOT in weither it be in TRAINING/actually USE.. but a non-chrome lined barrel makes no sense to me.. not to mention the 1/9 twist barrel, that has a hard time stabilizing the heavier weight projectiles, that OPERATORS actually use.. that name of the rifle does not match it's features..

    as the DD has a cold hammer forged barrel, 1/7 twist, chrome lined bore and chamber, proper sized gas port for mil ammo. not to mention the best customer service in the business, that not to mention also supports nazifornia.

    not trying to start a huge debate, as everyones ar needs are different, and before the 1/9 twist 1/7 twist debate starts, i have tried 1/9 twist barrel shooting mk262/hornady 75gr tap which yes i shoot ALOT of, and accuracy suffered in the 1/9 twist, so yes i use a 1/7 twist always have, always will. now as i am different then the OP maybe the OP will be just fine with a RRA , personally i would not spend the money on a RRA. I would go to a great retailer much like rifle gear, or many other great retailers.. and buy something from one of them, a ca retailer and buy from a manufacture that supports ca..

    just my 2 cents..
    ronin.
    I disagree with you on the 1/7 vs 1/9 non-chrome lined vs chrome lined. The Sig Sauer 550 and 551 both came in 1/10 twist, non chrome lined after YEARS of research into close quarters operations. Sig relied on data gathered from thousands of combat situations and tested the rifles against live animals and ballistics gel. They also tested the weapon system using that ammo READ HERE. Second time in 3 days i posted that link...LOL. They used a 63gr FMJ (Gw Pat.90) and found that this gave the best soft tissue / light armor / close range / medium range / penetration / fragmentation / wound cavity outcomes. It gave the best possible outcome in all situations, EVEN if a specific outcome was less then that provided by another combo. They chose NOT to chrome line the barrel since this decreases accuracy for the benefit of catering to idiots who can't clean a barrel when instructed too....or as a way to enhance barrel life at the cost of accuracy and environmental conditions.

    If you are a professional "Operator" you want and do certain things.

    1) You want the best overall chance to kill your opponent. You can tailor your weapon to a specific mission. If not, you want the best weapon for all possible engagements. That means professionally maintaining, cleaning and housing your weapon. You will not need specialized coatings and barrel linings "grunts" need since grunts treat their weapons like crap or they can not afford the time it takes to properly maintain a weapon system before or in between a mission. SWAT Officers store their weapons in an Armory and they are properly maintained before missions. They don't need chrome lining and are better served with accuracy. The best barrel for that is a cut barrel (not CHF) without chrome lining. They also don't need a specialized twist designed for different ammos.

    2) You choose your ammo and twist the same way. Choosing a long heavy round and a tight twist means you are not expecting close quarters engagements. The long heavy ammo will punch through soft body armor and out the back with little to no fragmentation...not good. That ammo is best used for mid to longer ranged engagements where the shorter lighter ammo can't maintain accuracy or acceptable wound channeling due to the tighter twist needed for the heavy ammo...see the problem there. You create a circular problematic issue. Now going with a longer twist 1/9 or 1/10 and a mid grade ammo..like 62gr, or Gw Pat.90, MK318. You gain destructive ability at close range without sacrificing anything at mid ranges.

    3) Operators are rarely lone wolves. They operate in teams. The far-mid and long range threats will be dealt with by the members in the team best equipped to deal with them...and thats not going to be a 5.56 MK262 projectile, which can be used for that...but lets not get off track here. MK262 is a compromise for not having a 7.62 firearm. I use it myself since I carry one Rifle and many different types of ammo. I swap ammo when needed tailoring my ammo to the situation I am in. I am NOT an operator. No operator is going to be carrying 3 different ammo selections and swapping ammo when he is faced with a threat where his currently loaded ammo isn't best. Thats silly.

    American and European logistical tactics differ quite a bit. Both produce quality results. I would not dismiss RRAs Op2 simply because it doesn't fit into what a few certain American instructors have been telling us. The European teams have been dealing with this just like we have and have good data on what works and what doesn't.

    All that being said... I'd choose DD over RRA simply because of what Riflegear told us. DD supports California and RRA is silent on the issues that effect our rights.
    Last edited by dieselpower; 02-12-2012, 12:17 PM.

    Comment

    • #47
      RONIN.
      Member
      • Sep 2010
      • 486

      as always dieselpower, you make good points.. but what i have been taught in my many years going down range and from my own experiance testing things myself tells me what i said earlier..

      you say that that the mk262 is not a close engagement round, that is true.. but sometimes, ok alot of the time, being down range you use what you have on hand.. and sometimes that is the mk262, and as much as some say it doesn't work well in close range, from my own testing it works great at close range as does the heavy 75grain tap.. which i use ALOT of, in training and in my daily work ar..

      not trying to argue with you but i am saying from my personal training, and teaching and MY OWN R&D has shown me that 1/7 twist works better with the ammo i use in training and in my work weapon..

      ronin.

      Comment

      • #48
        dieselpower
        Banned
        • Jan 2009
        • 11471

        Originally posted by RONIN.
        as always dieselpower, you make good points.. but what i have been taught in my many years going down range and from my own experiance testing things myself tells me what i said earlier..

        you say that that the mk262 is not a close engagement round, that is true.. but sometimes, ok alot of the time, being down range you use what you have on hand.. and sometimes that is the mk262, and as much as some say it doesn't work well in close range, from my own testing it works great at close range as does the heavy 75grain tap.. which i use ALOT of, in training and in my daily work ar..

        not trying to argue with you but i am saying from my personal training, and teaching and MY OWN R&D has shown me that 1/7 twist works better with the ammo i use in training and in my work weapon..

        ronin.
        I agree use what you found works, but always remember there are valid reasons for other options. Many Rifle manufacturers do not agree with 1/7 since it stems from the US Armys compromise for ground grunts. I personally think 1/7 is a very good twist for 62gr.

        I was just commenting that I wouldn't hold it against RRA for backing the other side of the debate. They are on solid valid ground for using 1/8, 1/9, Wylde Chamber and non-chrome lined barrels in fighting carbines.

        I also enjoy debating with a guy who knows his stuff....even when you and I beat each other up, I love our debates.

        Comment

        • #49
          INDABZ
          Member
          • Jul 2011
          • 243

          Rock River Arms does also offer chrome lining and 1/7 twist barrels if that's what you want.....

          In a utility rifle the chrome lining doesn't really degrade the accuraccy to a degree that your average shooter would notice the difference using commercial ammo or military ball....

          Most LMT chrome lined barrels shoot well under 2 moa...

          Comment

          • #50
            shark92651
            Vendor/Retailer
            • Oct 2006
            • 5431

            Originally posted by UP2MTNS
            I was looking at getting a brand new RRA last December, I ended up buying something used off a Calguns member, but the FFL/RRA dealer I spoke to out of Sacramento had no issues offering to get me a CA legal RRA....so, I'm not sure how this is true?

            Their website specifically lists 10 CA dealers:


            And I don't see anything on either DD or RRA's websites about specifically shipping (or not shipping) to CA. Its got to go to an FFL anyway, so I'm curious why DD is 'different' from RRA here? (if I missed something, can you supply the link? thx)
            We are a RRA dealer as well, but we just sell a couple of their 9mm uppers and a few other parts. It's still possible to get lowers and rifles into the state even from dealers that won't ship them in directly. Some have come in from distributors out of state who have no problem shipping legal receivers in, for example. Maybe they have changed their tune and are shipping straight in now, but I remember the first year we signed up to buy 100 rifles from Daniel Defense, I couldn't get the RRA owner to even agree to take a look at CA. I did all the talking and I got maybe 3 words out of him the whole time, he seemed to be uncomfortable even listening to me talk about bringing lowers or rifles into CA. Times may have changed though, but I haven't checked back with them as we have so many other choices available now anyway.
            sigpic
            www.riflegear.com

            Comment

            • #51
              PWPSK1
              Member
              • Aug 2009
              • 476

              Originally posted by shark92651
              We are a RRA dealer as well, but we just sell a couple of their 9mm uppers and a few other parts. It's still possible to get lowers and rifles into the state even from dealers that won't ship them in directly. Some have come in from distributors out of state who have no problem shipping legal receivers in, for example. Maybe they have changed their tune and are shipping straight in now, but I remember the first year we signed up to buy 100 rifles from Daniel Defense, I couldn't get the RRA owner to even agree to take a look at CA. I did all the talking and I got maybe 3 words out of him the whole time, he seemed to be uncomfortable even listening to me talk about bringing lowers or rifles into CA. Times may have changed though, but I haven't checked back with them as we have so many other choices available now anyway.
              RRA hasn't changed their tune unfortunately. They still won't ship lowers or complete rifles to CA...but continue to be happy to sell me all the parts and uppers I want.

              Comment

              • #52
                RONIN.
                Member
                • Sep 2010
                • 486

                Originally posted by dieselpower
                I agree use what you found works, but always remember there are valid reasons for other options. Many Rifle manufacturers do not agree with 1/7 since it stems from the US Armys compromise for ground grunts. I personally think 1/7 is a very good twist for 62gr.

                I was just commenting that I wouldn't hold it against RRA for backing the other side of the debate. They are on solid valid ground for using 1/8, 1/9, Wylde Chamber and non-chrome lined barrels in fighting carbines.

                I also enjoy debating with a guy who knows his stuff....even when you and I beat each other up, I love our debates.

                LOL yes i agree are debates are fun, yes there are uses for the slower twist rates of 1/8, 1/9 even 1/12.. and as always I post from my experiance, which is of "fighting with a carbine downrange" and as many of the MIL folks here know you don;t always get what is "optimal" for what you need. Now that I am in the private sector, and get to pick my own equipment I seem to spend more money putting what doesn't work down range for me.. in my "junk box" as i am writing this, i'm researching a barrel for a prairie dog varminter.. and of course with my MIL/pmc experiance the first thing comes to mind is 1/7 twist.. which is of course all wrong for the lite 36gr black hills i will be using for the varmints.. i guess old habits die hard.

                as for the non-chrome lined barrels.. i do agree with you, my SPR has a 1/8 twist chromemoly non-chrome lined barrel, as many many friends told me to go that route over a 1/7 twist spr barrel.. so i listened.

                as for the non chrome lined barrels of the RRA, i see reasons why they would go with it.. not everyone uses the heavier projectiles.. as when i did some work down south, the dea was using 1/9 twist barrels and using 55gr tap, so the faster twist rates were not needed.

                and looking at the features of the RRA they have nice features chrome bcg, a nice touch and the rra trigger is also a nice touch.. but still it is NOT my cup of tea.. as of course i go after features that fit MY needs..

                so, OP to be completely honest, either way you go, you will be extremely happy and have a quality rifle. I personally prefer the DD over the RRA but that is once again MY opinion.

                as deiselpower gave very valid points of his side..

                OP either way you go, you will be happy that you have a quality rifle



                and on another funny note, pertaining to this debate, a friend of mine shooters nra national match, and uses 77 & heavier projectiles, and refuses to use a 1/7 or 1/8.. he uses a 1/9 twist barrel.. says it is the most accurate that way.. whcih completely goes against all of what i have learned over the years, but one thing i have learned over the years, what works for me will not always work for someone else. the more you shoot the more you learn what works for YOU. and that is what matters, what work for YOU.

                ronin.
                Last edited by RONIN.; 02-12-2012, 9:11 PM. Reason: added content

                Comment

                • #53
                  Gladdis.45
                  Member
                  • Jul 2010
                  • 263

                  Another for DD. I put it on a Spikes lower and have ran hundreds of rounds thru it without a single problem, so far. Bit pricey though.
                  Rob

                  Keep your "Change". I'll keep my money, my guns and my FREEDOM!!!

                  Comment

                  • #54
                    Elwood_Blues
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2010
                    • 2394

                    I went with DD for three reasons; Reputation, I liked the way it looked, and I got a smoking deal on a brand new M4V3 upper.
                    Weapons Case Hotwire Foam Cutting
                    We can't help you ignore yourself. - CGN
                    Destruction is the way of life, destruction, mayhem, havoc, strife. - Bobby Blitz

                    Comment

                    • #55
                      george tirebiter
                      Member
                      • Feb 2012
                      • 330

                      Originally posted by john doe
                      daniel defense all they way..i have a ddm4v7 and shot probably 150rounds through it with no problems and i have 850 left to go...if you go on their website there giving away another rifle maybe you can buy a rr and win a dd..that would be nice hard but nice



                      J. Doe, I just posted a new thread above yours regarding a purchase I'm looking to make. I'm not AR proficient can you tell me what your sight set up entails? Thanks!

                      George Tirebiter

                      Comment

                      • #56
                        BlueSun
                        Junior Member
                        • Jun 2009
                        • 44

                        Thank you everyone for the feedback (especially the more vocal of you).

                        I will go with Daniel Defense for the sheer number of supporters of it that posted, as well as them supporting Californians (something I didn't know was an issue between the 2 companies), and the fact that it is a better quality rifle. Along with my belief that if you're only going to have one of something, its worth putting the money in to make sure you're getting a really good quality product. As discussed RRA is great, but DD is better.

                        As for the issue of whether my decision towards DD is to show off or not, that isn't an issue at all. I do not intend to tell my friends of my firearms (except my close cop friend that happens to be a neighbor if it comes up).

                        Comment

                        • #57
                          Yimmyen
                          Junior Member
                          • Mar 2010
                          • 29

                          I have the older DDM4 that was purchased a few years ago.

                          I had an issue with removing the end plate (sling attachment between the castle nut and the lower receiver). DD from the factory staked the end plate which made it very tough to remove without shredding the threads on the buffer tube. Not sure if they still do this on their newer models. Eventually added a Vltor stock and Magpul ASAP sling attachment, looks and feels great.

                          Comment

                          • #58
                            BlueSun
                            Junior Member
                            • Jun 2009
                            • 44

                            I'm looking to get the a lightweight and mid-length version. Any downsides to that?

                            Comment

                            • #59
                              huck
                              Senior Member
                              CGN Contributor
                              • Mar 2008
                              • 972

                              I'm confused. Rock River is actually one of the guns on the banned list. I thought there was no way to have a RRA lower here. My AR is all RRA except for the Double-Star lower.

                              Shop at Amazon.com and support Calguns Foundation with every purchase

                              Comment

                              • #60
                                dieselpower
                                Banned
                                • Jan 2009
                                • 11471

                                Originally posted by PWPSK1
                                RRA hasn't changed their tune unfortunately. They still won't ship lowers or complete rifles to CA...but continue to be happy to sell me all the parts and uppers I want.
                                If thats true...we all need to ignore RRA.

                                Comment

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