Charged excessive fees for PPT - ** UPDATE - refund was granted! **

[Morales]

Lets look at this from the other side, please. When you do a PPT, the transaction usually takes a minimum of 45 minutes to one hour. In that time, the employee may not make any sales, nor assist any other customers in any meaningful way. He must also fill out a great deal of paper work, some of which he will have to do after you leave. After all of it, the store will make almost no money for all of his time, and if he is working on commission, then he will miss making a sale for his store and himself for as long as it takes to finish you up. Not only that, but if the store is understaffed, then the customers who went there to buy something that the store can actually profit from have to wait until your business is finished. Think of how many people who came to buy something roll their eyes and walk out when they see the guy ahead of them tell the clerk "I'm here to do a PPT." I've seen employees at gun stores argue over who has to do the PPT, it gets bitter sometimes. Its not uncommon for one employee to say this to another right in front of a customer: "I did the last one, you do this one." or even better "You owe me lunch, do this and we'll call it even." I understand you don't want to spend a lot of money, hence you're buying a used gun, but understand that YOU have to go through about 1/10 th the effort that the poor bastard guy behind the counter does. What it boils down to is that there is nothing in it for anyone but you when you do a PPT. And I think stores should be able to charge more.

[jandmtv]

this is not a matter of wheather they should be able to charge more or not, its a matter of they are now allowed to charge more by law, so they shouldnt, but still do, and at the same time, they preach to us about how they know the law in and out, god forbid you ask them a question about the legality of something that is.

[timmy8151]

When you do a PPT, the transaction usually takes a minimum of 45 minutes to one hour

Most places I've been to take no more than a half hour. The only exception was Target Masters (which took nearly a 1.5 hours).

[Solidmch]

Thats why I like going to Irvington Arms. Those guys are great. I went to a ffl in Castro Valley (NOT CV GUNS). He refused to do it. Then told me he would do it for 10% of the MSRP of the gun. I left. I dont want to do business with guys like that. I dont need any company or gun shop.

[wayoutwest]

Lets look at this from the other side, please. When you do a PPT, the transaction usually takes a minimum of 45 minutes to one hour. In that time, the employee may not make any sales, nor assist any other customers in any meaningful way. He must also fill out a great deal of paper work, some of which he will have to do after you leave. After all of it, the store will make almost no money for all of his time, and if he is working on commission, then he will miss making a sale for his store and himself for as long as it takes to finish you up. Not only that, but if the store is understaffed, then the customers who went there to buy something that the store can actually profit from have to wait until your business is finished. Think of how many people who came to buy something roll their eyes and walk out when they see the guy ahead of them tell the clerk "I'm here to do a PPT." I've seen employees at gun stores argue over who has to do the PPT, it gets bitter sometimes. Its not uncommon for one employee to say this to another right in front of a customer: "I did the last one, you do this one." or even better "You owe me lunch, do this and we'll call it even." I understand you don't want to spend a lot of money, hence you're buying a used gun, but understand that YOU have to go through about 1/10 th the effort that the poor bastard guy behind the counter does. What it boils down to is that there is nothing in it for anyone but you when you do a PPT. And I think stores should be able to charge more.

Maybe if your at Big 5, but the regular shops should be able to process it in less than 15, probably 10 if you can fill out the paperwork quickly. At least in my experience, in both Fremont and Martinez, quick and easy. TM in Milpitas have their own forms which adds to the time it takes to process them.

[thedrickel]

Yep, I've never had a PPT take longer than 15 minutes.

FYI - peninsula/SF guys, Jackson Arms will no longer transfer anything that looks like an AK. Owner flipped his lid and they won't do them any more, even though I did an NDS3 build there a few months ago. City Arms will do it if there is no pistol grip, whether or not there is a mag-lock. Guess they don't understand the difference between their fixed-mag AR on the wall and my fixed-mag AK on the counter (none).

But I am more PO'd that Jackson wouldn't do it. They'll let me shoot it there cause they know it's legal, yet they won't do the legally mandated PPT. I guess my money is green enough for range fees, targets and ammo but not for a stinkin PPT.

[emc002]

Most places I've been to take no more than a half hour. The only exception was Target Masters (which took nearly a 1.5 hours).

A fellow CalGunner & I just traded 3 guns and completed all 3 PPTs in less than 30 minutes...

[mike452]

Do I call the DOJ?

I would give DOJ a call and never use them again.

Some people believe they deserve more than others even if breaking the law.
Price gouging laws were made because of them.

OR believe they are doing all of us a favor to be in the gun business in CA and forget about it...

[DedEye]

Are FFLs allowed to charge $1-2 more ($37 total) for "paperwork?"

[Fjold]

If you think that it's OK for the FFL to charge more than $35 give him a tip.

The law was specifically written so that people would go through an FFL for the background check and not sell them on the black market.

If the FFL's could charge as much as they want for PTP's many would be charging $100 or more because that's what they feel they could make if they sold you a new gun.

If you don't think that they would, you are being naive. Look at how many are willing to break the law for $10-$20 now.

[G17GUY]

Are FFLs allowed to charge $1-2 more ($37 total) for "paperwork?"

Not for face to face. Out of state they can charge what they want.


Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:

For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of$10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.
(PC section 12072(d))

[HKROB]

I just PPT 2 pistols at turners $41 each (dros included)took about 50 min for both.Their was a **** load of paper work.

[hoffmang]

Guys,

Why exactly should we give retailers a pass on the laws we have to follow? I want all CA FFL's to care about pushing back on Sacramento. Right now there isn't a lot of interest from our local retailers (absent a few who frequent this board) to be active in opposing new legislation.

Not being involved means getting stuck with a legally mandatory face to face PPT fee that isn't enough to cover the costs and violating the Penal Code when they try to circumvent it.

-Gene

[halifax]

I was just at Imbert & Smithers in San Carlos for a PPT (face to face Pistol purchase with another Calgunner) and was charged $50 for the transaction. I balked at the price and asked if they know it wasn't legal. The salesman stated that he wouldn't do PPTs if he couldn't charge $25 on top of the DROS. I told him that refusing PPTs was also illegal, but unfortunately I didn't have my trusty penal code book with me.

I suppose I'll print out the applicable code and FAQ from the DOJ website and bring them in when I pick up the pistol. Hopefully I can get a $15 refund, as the total allowable price is $35 for PPT.

Since the dealer is required by law to post conspicuously all fees charged, you really don't need to "print out the applicable code". Just find the conspicuously posted fee schedule.

12071.1(b)...

(11) The licensee shall post conspicuously within the licensed premises a detailed list of each of the following:
(A) All charges required by governmental agencies for processing firearm transfers required by Sections 12076, 12082, and 12806.
(B) All fees that the licensee charges pursuant to Sections 12082 and 12806.
(12) The licensee shall not misstate the amount of fees charged by a governmental agency pursuant to Sections 12076, 12082, and 12806.


12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072...

...The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction...

...(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

[G17GUY]

I just PPT 2 pistols at turners $41 each (dros included)took about 50 min for both.Their was a **** load of paper work.

35+31 = 66 What does the reciept say the extra dough is for?