Charged excessive fees for PPT - ** UPDATE - refund was granted! **

[Harbinger]

*** UPDATE *** Management at Imbert & Smithers refunded me $15. I consider this issue resolved. Thank you to everyone for their input.

I was just at Imbert & Smithers in San Carlos for a PPT (face to face Pistol purchase with another Calgunner) and was charged $50 for the transaction. I balked at the price and asked if they know it wasn't legal. The salesman stated that he wouldn't do PPTs if he couldn't charge $25 on top of the DROS. I told him that refusing PPTs was also illegal, but unfortunately I didn't have my trusty penal code book with me.

I suppose I'll print out the applicable code and FAQ from the DOJ website and bring them in when I pick up the pistol. Hopefully I can get a $15 refund, as the total allowable price is $35 for PPT.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#8

http://www.aroundthecapitol.com/code/getcode.html?file=./pen/12001-13000/12070-12086

What recourse do I have if they won't budge on the fees? Do I call the DOJ?

Thanks in advance,

Mike

[jandmtv]

wow, really? that the most ridiculous thing ive heard. a gun store willfully breaking the law to turn a bigger profit..... contact the doj, im sure this isnt the first time they have done that.

[jandmtv]

im sure they know the law, they didnt get to be a ffl dealer by not knowing the law, its seems to be more of a "i know what the law sais but i dont care, its my store and i can do as i please" situation to me

[Harbinger]

I think I'm willing to give him a second chance.

I think jandmtv is right, though. This CAN'T be the first time they've done this....

ETA: Just read your post, though. You're right, they SHOULD and most likely DO know the law. Why should I allow them a second chance?

Mike

[Harbinger]

Good point... plus I don't want to burn any bridges. I may need these guys some time in the future.



One more chance, then I'll drop a dime.


Mike

[jandmtv]

all the instances you speak of fall under grey line, besides the sks, this is different, i cant think of any ffl that doesnt know the doj rates by heart!

not neccesarily.i know a (older guy that reminds me of a mean grandpa)guy who does it for fun. he brought in a listed aw for guy.doj showed up and they made him send it back. he didn't think it was because it was a 9mm.or take for instance dealers who won't touch oll or says they are illigal.what about the thread were a dealer said the sks with a pipe on the end was a gernade launcher.all misimformed

EDIT: im not saying dont give them a 2nd chance, im just saying they know damn well what they are doing is illegal.

[rkt88edmo]

If you don't like it go somewhere else.

This thread pops up about once every 4 months, here is a recent one.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=38935

Do you think $5 or $10 compensates the FFL fairly for the time they spent on your PPT?

ETA, here are some others:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=28014

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=43181

When I did notary work, we always had to be specific about what we charged for notary acts and what was extra because of the state mandated maximum fees. There were no restrictions on how much to charge over all, so it all becomes a bit of a name game. As you can read, they can make up any fee they want to, storage, appearance, facility, paperwork, processing, booger picking, etc.

[Harbinger]

ETA: My bad, the link you sent was for another PPT. However, I think it's FANTASTIC that a thread like this pops up often. If we don't tell each other who's over-charging, how can we know not to drive 45mi like I did today?

This particular transaction was a PRIVATE PARTY TRANSFER, FACE TO FACE. There is California PENAL CODE that specifically forbids charging more than $10 in addition to the $25 DROS. Read the first link below. It makes things crystal clear:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#8

http://www.aroundthecapitol.com/code/getcode.html?file=./pen/12001-13000/12070-12086

I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with dealers charging any amount they want on transfers, but face-to-face PPT is a whole different ball of wax.

It doesn't matter what you or I think an FFL should be charging, in this situation.

Mike

[Harbinger]

From http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#8 :

I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?

Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the; buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:

1. For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
2. For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of$10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.

(PC section 12072(d))

[thedrickel]

Yes, we know that is they law, they know that is the law, but for some reason they insist on breaking it and risking their license for less than 20$.

What is the penalty specified in the penal code for this offense? We could send a LEO in to do a PPT and then said LEO could get their attention with the appropriate penal code.

[Harbinger]

What is the penalty specified in the penal code for this offense? We could send a LEO in to do a PPT and then said LEO could get their attention with the appropriate penal code.

According to 12082. (d) of the California Penal code, the dealer could be charged with a misdemeanor.

I'm not out to smear a dealer here. I want to give him a second chance... and warn the rest of you that I&S may attempt to break the law when you use them for PPT. If this is a redundant thread rkt88edmo, please lock it now.

Mike

[rkt88edmo]

ack you're right, reading comprehension is low today.

Of the 5 FFLs I've used in the last few years 3 want more than $35 for PPT, I think it is fairly widespread.

[jandmtv]

and fairly illegal, if we are forced to follow the law, so should they. they are no better than us.

[timmy8151]

Imbert & Smithers did the same thing to a guy that bought a Mini 14 from me. The guy didnt make a big deal so we continued with the transaction. Even though Imbert is 5 minutes from my house I will NEVER do business with them again. While I'm not a big fan of snitching, I really think something needs to be done about this.

[devjunk762]

There's a reason the PPT fee is mandated, controlled, and low- mainly because they (legislature) want to ensure that people LEGALLY transfer firearms without wincing at the prices. Can you imagine if stores could arbitrarily charge whatever they wanted to for PPT fees?

Additionally, another rational for controlling PPT fees is that the FFL is making their living from selling firearms to people and NOT from simply performing PPT transactions. Performing PPT functions as an FFL is part of the function of BEING an FFL in this state- it sucks, it takes time, and is a big headache, but that's the job.

However, an FFL can REFUSE to conduct a PPT for a handgun if they normally don't deal in handguns. This is the reason why Big 5 won't perform a handgun PPT for you...

I feel for all CA FFLs, and they do deserve our support to keep them in business- it's a tough business. But, on the other hand, what this guy did was illegal and he should "fix the issue". I would alert him to the penal code, and ask him if he'd like to give you a refund for the excess amount because "this was an honest mistake."