Bullet Button question

[SoCalAR]

In Toolbox's toploading poll someone mentioned not having to topload with a Bullet Button set up. Is there a general consensus that actually using the bullet button function to drop and reload mags is legal because technically the rifle is still incapable of accepting removable mags or is it a little sketchy to remove magazines?

Do you have to use a 'tool' to put mags back in the gun? And if so, is that why it's ok?

Thanks.

[Nefarious]

In Toolbox's toploading poll someone mentioned not having to topload with a Bullet Button set up. Is there a general consensus that actually using the bullet button function to drop and reload mags is legal because technically the rifle is still incapable of accepting removable mags or is it a little sketchy to remove magazines?

Do you have to use a 'tool' to put mags back in the gun? And if so, is that why it's ok?

Thanks.

Its just as legal as using the Prince50 or any other mag lock. All these locks are LEGAL to the letter of the Law. Untill they are DOJ Approved - which I doubt will ever happen, but heres to hoping - you are still at risk (just look at what happened and HAS happend to various forum members).

Of course there are people that dont want to chance it.. and go gripless, MM setup, no evil features, etc ... but even they are at risk - I mean come on.. its a black rifle with a detachable mag.. it MUST be an AW - CA and out laws .. HA!

EDIT: ohh and before anyone else does it

[Jicko]

In Toolbox's toploading poll someone mentioned not having to topload with a Bullet Button set up. Is there a general consensus that actually using the bullet button function to drop and reload mags is legal because technically the rifle is still incapable of accepting removable mags or is it a little sketchy to remove magazines?

I dunno wut's the general consensus is..... but that's how "I" use the BB.

Is it sketchy? EVERYTHING about the "black rifle" is.

But for you.... go read the law, convince yourself, rather than just blindly follow the others.... cuz, in the end... it is your own ***...

Do you have to use a 'tool' to put mags back in the gun? And if so, is that why it's ok?

No you DO NOT need to use a tool to put the mags back in. You just put the mag back in like a regular USA-AR15. The 'tool' is ONLY needed when 'removing' the magazine (just as the law say so).

If you are in San Diego, feel free to join me or grammaton in one of our range days and check out the various configurations we had.

[tenpercentfirearms]

In Toolbox's toploading poll someone mentioned not having to topload with a Bullet Button set up. Is there a general consensus that actually using the bullet button function to drop and reload mags is legal because technically the rifle is still incapable of accepting removable mags or is it a little sketchy to remove magazines?

Do you have to use a 'tool' to put mags back in the gun? And if so, is that why it's ok?

Thanks.

Nope. It is illegal as can be. Everyone who uses it is a felon. Everyone who sells one is a felon.

It simply amazes me how many people ask me, "Is that legal?"

Sorry for the rant but, IF IT WASN'T LEGAL WHY WOULD I OPENLY OFFER THEM FOR SALE!!!

Sorry about that. No offense intended but I just had to let that out.

[supersonic]

I just use this philosophy: Use my black rifles w/ P50 & BB's at the 2 AR-friendly ranges I shoot at where no one "trips" when they see a guy dropping mags for reloads, then before I leave (and the rest of the time they are in my possession) they are locked in accordance with written law. IMHO everyone's chances of leo "problems" will greatly decrease if the above proceedure is followed. Oh, and it REALLY helps to make sure the range is "AR-FRIENDLY," "HIP," or just don't give a s**t (choose one OR all! ). Maintaining a "LO-PRO" doesn't hurt much, either. All of the above has probably been said millions of times on here, but it really can't be stressed enough. Plus, I like the number 1,000,001 anyway!
Be Safe Out There.
S.S.

[supersonic]

Nope. It is illegal as can be. Everyone who uses it is a felon. Everyone who sells one is a felon.

It simply amazes me how many people ask me, "Is that legal?"

Sorry for the rant but, IF IT WASN'T LEGAL WHY WOULD I OPENLY OFFER THEM FOR SALE!!!

Sorry about that. No offense intended but I just had to let that out.

YOU are a funny guy. I could see that friggin' "rant" 100yds. away!!!!

S.S.

p.s.- my VERY FIRST BB purchase (about .1 nanosecond after I discovered their existence) was from you. Keep 'em comin"

[SoCalAR]

I'm not asking if the BB is legal. If you had understood what I meant I am wondering about the legality of an evil-featured rifle with no mag in it ONCE YOU DROP IT. I havn't seen a post or reply specifically addressing this.

I don't want to show up to an AR friendly range only to get hassled once I drop a mag to reload.

When you make your 1/4 turn on the Prince 50 and unlock the mag well on an evil-featured rifle doesn't it become an AW? I am just wondering what everyone tends to believe once you remove a mag with a BB. Then you can put a mag back in and might be seen by some as a 'centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine.'

And I appreciate the sarcasm, Wes, just make sure you understand what I'm asking before you jump on me.

[thmpr]

Is there a general consensus that actually using the bullet button function to drop and reload mags is legal because technically the rifle is still incapable of accepting removable mags or is it a little sketchy to remove magazines?

Do you have to use a 'tool' to put mags back in the gun? And if so, is that why it's ok?

Thanks.

Is this not asking if it is legal? It is legal because it states "detachable magazine" and require a tool to accept a detachable magazine and nothing about being able to accept an attachable magazine.

Keep in mind " tool required to detach a magazine" nothing about attaching a magazine.

[PIRATE14]

I'm not asking if the BB is legal. If you had understood what I meant I am wondering about the legality of an evil-featured rifle with no mag in it ONCE YOU DROP IT. I havn't seen a post or reply specifically addressing this.

I don't want to show up to an AR friendly range only to get hassled once I drop a mag to reload.

When you make your 1/4 turn on the Prince 50 and unlock the mag well on an evil-featured rifle doesn't it become an AW? I am just wondering what everyone tends to believe once you remove a mag with a BB. Then you can put a mag back in and might be seen by some as a 'centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine.'

And I appreciate the sarcasm, Wes, just make sure you understand what I'm asking before you jump on me.

LEAVE the spring out of the magazine latch w/ the P50.....hence it will become usless when U unscrew the bolt....be smart.....

The lower/rifle w/ a BB is always a fixed mag rifle that req's a tool to remove the mag.............

M1A SOCOM II have a rail on the bottom....easily accept a FWD verticle grip.......

Attach a greater than 10rd or verticle grip are both just as easy but are AW violations.....don't do it.............

[tophatjones]

With the BB, you are using a tool to remove the mag. At no point does the mag release function with finger pressure alone. Therefore it is not a detachable magazine by Ca law, rather an "attachable" one. When you unlock the prince50 mag, you can use the mag release exactly as it was orginially intended, with finger pressure. No tool is required to remove the magazine, so it is a "detachable magazine". Confusing huh? Of course the Cadoj will probably never admit the legalities of these, citing final decision to the 58 DAs. Therefore, it is all just individual interpretation from here. Keep things legal like we all do, as best as we can because the doj sure aint gonna help us

[SoCalAR]

thanks tophat. you understand what i'm saying. i must have worded it wrong or something.

and thmpr, i'm NOT asking if it's legal. i was just wondering what type of a designation or description one would give to a rifle with a BB on it but with no magazine.

[FinweElensar]

thanks tophat. you understand what i'm saying. i must have worded it wrong or something.

and thmpr, i'm NOT asking if it's legal. i was just wondering what type of a designation or description one would give to a rifle with a BB on it but with no magazine.

A rifle with a fixed magazine/attachable magazine

[hoffmang]

Sigh.... I've posted this too many times, but...

Penal Code 12276.1. says:

(a) (1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:

It does not say:

(a) (1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept an attachable or detachable magazine and any one of the following:

The phrase "Detachable Magazine" is a specific defined term:

CCR 5469.
(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool…

And the reason the term is defined that way is the SKS issue. In the 2000 Rulemaking that implemented SB-23, this is what they had to say about the SKS:

Comment

A1.12 - The SKS rifle with a detachable magazine cannot be changed without using a bullet tip as a tool, thus the regulations conflict with the specific listing of SKS rifles with detachable magazines in the Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act. DOJ has no authority to contradict existing law.

DOJ Response

The Department disagrees with the comment because any magazine that requires the use of a bullet or any other tool for its removal is a fixed magazine, not a detachable magazine. The SKS with a true detachable magazine does not require a bullet or any other tool to remove and is a controlled assault weapon under Penal Code section 12276. Identifying a bullet as a tool allows for the proper categorization of an SKS with a fixed magazine. Therefore, the SKS referred to in the comment has a fixed, not detachable magazine.

From http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf



-Gene

[Jicko]

Newbie tips thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=56818

> Lastest way for "Fixed mag" Rifle, what is Bullet-Tip-Mag-Lock aka Bullet-Button: (1) original BB design (w/ gfx) (2) Gene/Hoffmang original explanation (3) 1st commerical implementation by Prince50 (w/ pic)

[tenpercentfirearms]

And I appreciate the sarcasm, Wes, just make sure you understand what I'm asking before you jump on me.

It isn't just you. It is everyone who has to ask whether what we are doing is legal or not. Seriously, what answer do you want to hear with that question?

"No, it isn't legal. I like to use or sell illegal items, especially in front of or to someone I don't even know."

Instead of asking a rhetorical question like, "Is that legal?" why not ask, "What makes that legal?"

See Gene Hoffman's post as it is exactly right. You can have the open magwell because it is not a detachable magazine because it requires the use of a tool to remove. The Prince50 inproperly fixed is a detachable magazine because it does not require the use of a tool to remove if you can push the button in.