Gap between featureless grip and stock

[TuxedoOnATShirt]

Gonna have to go w/ Citizen One's post.

We're a little late in the game for grip wraps to not be good to go just because you got big hands.

Kydex wraps are a real boner killer to be honest.
Keep an eye out for all legal options, maybe you'll find one you like better than a grip wrap.

[Citizen One]

Gonna have to go w/ Citizen One's post.

Don't agree with me too readily. Read and research on your own. Consult a lawyer.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=19600986#post19600986

Agreed. That public comment responses PDF is not legally binding, it's not signed by anyone nor does it claim to contain information that must be followed, rather it is intended to answer the question of why they think the regulations as published are valid. Only the wording of the PC, the wording of the actual published regulations, and any case law relevant to the either are legally binding.

Also, as mentioned by others, everyone who has actually used a Thordsen has reported that their hand webbing is significantly above the top of the trigger, so even according to the public comment responses PDF it's still a compliant device.

You're right; it's not a legally binding document.

It's just the DOJ saying, "this is how we interpret the law." Given that they're the ones enforcing it, I figured it was pretty relevent.

[therealnickb]

With due respect to all here, I believe you all may be incorrect.

Thumb placement does not matter in determining a "pistol grip" according to the DOJ circa 2000. The regulations are intentionally vague and arbitrary in order to selectively enforce the law. Them doing so is a constitutional law violation, but hey -- we live in California.

Credit due to Resurgent Arms for the legal research. I suggest his product or the Exile Hammerhead. The Resurgent Arms is designed directly on testimony from a DOJ agent that explicitly exculpated the Exile Hammerhead. Both are as close to kosher as possible without explicit opinion letters from the DOJ... for which law-abiding citizens are no longer responded to because it's "not their job", because hey -- we live in California.

https://www.exilemachine.net

https://www.resurgentarms.com

SB23 Final Statement for Reasons
https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a.../regs/fsor.pdf

Yet the comments on their own seem to contradict common use of the term pistol style grasp IMO.

How many pistols are designed to keep your thumb from wrapping around the grip?

[therealnickb]

I guess my setup is questionable then? I can put my thumb up through the section above the fin but the web of my hand, between my thumb and index finger, sits above the top portion of the exposed trigger.



Check out my feed on IG: the_fob_of_war

But CAN you drop your hand enough for the webbing to drop below the trigger top?

If you back your thumb out a bit, but don't remove it entirely, can you drop the webbing too low?

[Jimi Jah]

Now you see the limitations of the "fins". You can't grip them with your thumb. That's why I used the Hammerhead.

[Barang]

Who shoots and purposely torturing your hand like that?

[IVC]

Stretching thumb like that does not produce a shooting grip and nobody would want to fire a gun while holding it that way.

The authoritative PC is 30515 and it only talks about "pistol grip." A DA would have really hard time convincing a jury that just because someone can stretch their fingers in a certain way it makes the whole contraption "a pistol grip."

The whole "webbing of the hand" language comes from the DOJ website, not the PC. Sure they could try to imply that the above is somehow a pistol grip, but good luck in court with that.

[deephouse]

Dare you to shoot it like that!

[Maximus924]

Stretching thumb like that does not produce a shooting grip and nobody would want to fire a gun while holding it that way.

The authoritative PC is 30515 and it only talks about "pistol grip." A DA would have really hard time convincing a jury that just because someone can stretch their fingers in a certain way it makes the whole contraption "a pistol grip."

The whole "webbing of the hand" language comes from the DOJ website, not the PC. Sure they could try to imply that the above is somehow a pistol grip, but good luck in court with that.

Just like most of us, I am no lawyer, so take anything I have to say as just internet chat... that said...

I am shocked that so many people on this forum looked at that grip and said it was illegal.

I agree if you have any questions, you should change it to something your comfortable with, but in the definition that has already been posted here :

"pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing."

There is NO way I would consider this a "pistol style grasp" If this is considered a pistol style grasp, than ANY fin grip should be...

if ANY fin grip is LEGAL, I would have to think the "Sig Brace" law would have to apply here... holding it that way is NOT its designed intent. using it in its designed intent should be totally fine, but if you choose to hold it like a goofball, then you have (as they put it) "re-engineered" it and at that point it may not be legal.

even then, I still fall back to holding it that way couldn't be called a pistol style grasp...

the web of your hand is butt up against the grip in a pistol style grasp. there is nothing in that photo that would lead me to believe that grip could be considered "firmly wrapped around the grip"

A Pistol style grasp (at least as defined in this 12/17/2003 letter by the DOJ [2nd to last paragraph]):

A "Pistol Style Grasp" allows the fingers to wrap firmly around the grip.

[LowThudd]

Stretching thumb like that does not produce a shooting grip and nobody would want to fire a gun while holding it that way.

The authoritative PC is 30515 and it only talks about "pistol grip." A DA would have really hard time convincing a jury that just because someone can stretch their fingers in a certain way it makes the whole contraption "a pistol grip."

The whole "webbing of the hand" language comes from the DOJ website, not the PC. Sure they could try to imply that the above is somehow a pistol grip, but good luck in court with that.

"If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit!" - J. Cochran

[V8MERC124]

I had already posted it up at post #11 but it looks like everyone skipped over it....so I will make it bigger.

(d)"pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

LINK
https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a.../chapter39.pdf

[peppermintman]

Does the word "grasp" anything?

[B&D]

You're fine. Don't listen to all these people who don't know. Realistically, would you even shoot it like that? HELL NO!

[Bobby Ricigliano]

I guess my setup is questionable then? I can put my thumb up through the section above the fin but the web of my hand, between my thumb and index finger, sits above the top portion of the exposed trigger.



Check out my feed on IG: the_fob_of_war

That is the most aftermarket doohickeys I have ever seen on only 1/3 of an AR-15.

[Bobby Ricigliano]

Hi everyone. I recently got the strike industries simple featureless grip. There's a gap and I can get my thumb around the back to where it sits below the bottom of the trigger hole. Is this still legal?

The problem isn't your grip, or your grip fin, or your stock. It is all of them together. That fin isn't cut for that type of stock. I would like to say that it still appears to be featureless, but IANAL and the neuroses run deep around here as to what complies and what doesn't.