Help me with long range rifle decisions please!

[TMB 1]

Best long range handguns are made in the USA. I do have one German made handgun that does pretty good though.

[Grunt81]

True on both accounts, but 9mm is more effective for those that need to sit down to pee. Also, you probably have real German Sigs. The US clones they sell now are very overpriced and lacking in quality.

I have both german and us sigs.

I have seen a large man take 8 380 acp slugs in the center of his back and keep running.
Never missed a step and got away from the crime he committed.

A 380 is also known as a 9mm short or a 9mm kurz.

I have a set of 380 dies and a set of 40 short and weak, I mean 40 S&W dies, that's about as close as I'll get to those calibers.

A pistol is meant for one thing, to kill.
If it don't kill, it's useless.

That large man was probably shot with .380 jacketed hollow points which have a horrible reputation for terminal effect on target. They under-penetrate. It's recommended that those who carry a .380 use fmj or fmj flat point if they can find for the better penetration.

As you can see, they're ain't much a lick a difference in the top 3 pistol calibers we own. Pick your flavor. The .45 ACP will penetrate the same and expand about the same as a 9mm (keeping in mind those are both heaviest for caliber bullets), while producing a slightly larger permanent wound cavity....this usually comes at the cost of higher recoil, slower follow-up shots, and lower capacity.

Since they perform about the same on target, I'll take the one that I know I can get an eyeball shot if I needed to, while at the same time, I can dump 10 rounds in a torso in less than 4 seconds.

Now, the above is true for modern, self defense, jacketed hollow point ammunition. Those numbers become even more exaggerated when comparing +P, but the +P+ 9mm has a slightly greater advantage, at the cost of beating up the pistol. And not all 9's are rated for +P pressures.

However, if we were comparing defending ourselves with stockpiled fmj in SHTF, the .45 230 grain ball is the winner by a little bit, since it starts out 0.094" bigger.

The reasons 9mm has gotten a bad reputation, revolves around the 115 grain bullet. Even though it starts off fast with a lot of energy, it slams on the breaks when it hits human flesh. The 9mm NATO is basically a +P 124 grain fmj which will go through three terrorists before it stops. That's why it's called the "zombie" round. I shoot only 147 grain for defense, and mass load 135 grain round nose flat point for SHTF.
I'm a good shot and I don't think I would miss my target, ever. But I have been to combat and I understand the merits of having firepower - firepower, in sheer volume.

If someone can find me a .45 with a 17 round magazine, I might be tempted. But then again, I got my eye on a 10mm which whoops the .45's bootay.

[russ69]

...A pistol is meant for one thing, to kill.
If it don't kill, it's useless.

Ahhh, no.

[JMP]

Best long range handguns are made in the USA. I do have one German made handgun that does pretty good though.

I like the S&W 460, and it's on my list for a while, I just can never justify it's purchase. That would be sufficient for me.

I have seen a large man take 8 380 acp slugs in the center of his back and keep running.
Never missed a step and got away from the crime he committed.

Go easy, those little 380 pistols are only made these days to conceal in one's garter belt.

If someone can find me a .45 with a 17 round magazine, I might be tempted. But then again, I got my eye on a 10mm which whoops the .45's bootay.

Ballistic gel, blah blah blah, the problem is that it doesn't have bones and organs. 17 round capacity, eh? You can get a magazine as long as you want outside of CA. For .45 ACP, the UMP works well.

[ziconceo]

That large man was probably shot with .380 jacketed hollow points which have a horrible reputation for terminal effect on target. They under-penetrate. It's recommended that those who carry a .380 use fmj or fmj flat point if they can find for the better penetration.

As you can see, they're ain't much a lick a difference in the top 3 pistol calibers we own. Pick your flavor. The .45 ACP will penetrate the same and expand about the same as a 9mm (keeping in mind those are both heaviest for caliber bullets), while producing a slightly larger permanent wound cavity....this usually comes at the cost of higher recoil, slower follow-up shots, and lower capacity.

Since they perform about the same on target, I'll take the one that I know I can get an eyeball shot if I needed to, while at the same time, I can dump 10 rounds in a torso in less than 4 seconds.

Now, the above is true for modern, self defense, jacketed hollow point ammunition. Those numbers become even more exaggerated when comparing +P, but the +P+ 9mm has an even greater advantage.

However, if we were comparing defending ourselves with stockpiled fmj in SHTF, the .45 230 grain ball is the winner by a little bit, since it starts out 0.094" bigger.

The reasons 9mm has gotten a bad reputation, revolves around the 115 grain bullet. Even though it starts off fast with a lot of energy, it slams on the breaks when it hits human flesh. The 9mm NATO is basically a +P 124 grain fmj which will go through three terrorists before it stops. I shoot only 147 grain for defense, and mass load 135 grain round nose flat point for SHTF.
I'm a good shot and I don't think I would miss my target, ever. But I have been to combat and I understand the merits of having firepower - firepower, in sheer volume.

If someone can find me a .45 with a 17 round magazine, I might be tempted. But then again, I got my eye on a 10mm which whoops the .45's bootay.

This dude knows stuff

[Thorax]

Never seen a ribcage in a block of gelatin.
Gelatin doesn't wear a jacket.
Gelatin doesn't breathe or fight back and it sure as hell won't shoot back.

Anyone can shoot a block of pudding and say look at the pretty hole I made.

Find a pissed off adversary amped up on adrenaline and see how well your little popgun works.

There are myriad good reasons why the US kept the 1911 as the official sidearm for 2 world wars, korea and viet nahm and a few other small conflicts and saw no need for change.
Went to the Beretta for a few minor conflicts and are now looking for a replacement.

"The 9mm doesn't score high with soldier feedback," said Easlick, explaining that the Army, and the other services, want a round that will have better terminal effects -- or cause more damage -- when it hits enemy combatants. "We have to do better than our current 9mm."

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/07/03/army-wants-a-harder-hitting-pistol.html

http://kitup.military.com/2014/11/army-hold-pistol-competition-year.html

Problems with the M9 from the government accountability office.

http://www.gao.gov/products/T-NSIAD-88-46

Full sheet here

http://www.gao.gov/assets/110/102286.pdf

I could go on all day.

Or I could post a useless image of pudding.

When I'm in the bear woods (which is several days a week) I carry a minimum 44 mag (ruger super Blackhawk) and usually carry a 454 Casull with 320 grainers hotloaded with H110.
I carry a revolver because it's more reliable than any semi auto pistol ever made.
I have never heard of a revolver failing unless someone seriously did something wrong to it.
A large magnum round will kill a big bear, but it will take more than one round even with perfect hits that damage the heart.....ask me how I know this.

Everyone is a phanboi on the intarwebz, put them in a life or death situation and see how their gun of the weak....uhh week, performs in the real world, where blood is involved, probably theirs.

[russ69]

...I have never heard of a revolver failing unless someone seriously did something wrong to it...

In my hands I've had more cylinders lock up than I've had semi-auto problems. But that' just me. Revolvers are supposed to be fool proof but it didn't work out that way for me.

[Grunt81]

I like the S&W 460, and it's on my list for a while, I just can never justify it's purchase. That would be sufficient for me.

I've shot it a few times. Every time you pull the trigger you get a $2 heat wave in your face and it distracts everyone around you. If someone else is shooting it at an indoor range, I just wait till they shoot off their 5 round cylinder before I continue lol. But yeah, it's hard to justify it unless you are running the risk of being charged by dangerous game on the regular. No doubt it would penetrate the skull of a grizzly bear. That round is stacked with authority.

Ballistic gel, blah blah blah, the problem is that it doesn't have bones and organs. 17 round capacity, eh? You can get a magazine as long as you want outside of CA. For .45 ACP, the UMP works well.

I agree completely. Even though ballistics gel is designed to recreate human muscle tissure, a more accurate assessment would be two hog ribs surrounding a hog liver, with winter jacket material on each side of the block. Organs can be more dense. Also, our skin, as thin as it is, is so elastic, each layer of it is supposed to equate to 2 inches of gel.
I wasn't talking about 200 round drum magazines. It's not realistic to carry one of those.

Never seen a ribcage in a block of gelatin.
Gelatin doesn't wear a jacket.
Gelatin doesn't breathe or fight back and it sure as hell won't shoot back.

Anyone can shoot a block of pudding and say look at the pretty hole I made.

Find a pissed off adversary amped up on adrenaline and see how well your little popgun works.

There are myriad good reasons why the US kept the 1911 as the official sidearm for 2 world wars, korea and viet nahm and a few other small conflicts and saw no need for change.
Went to the Beretta for a few minor conflicts and are now looking for a replacement.

I could go on all day.

Or I could post a useless image of pudding.


Everyone is a phanboi on the intarwebz, put them in a life or death situation and see how their gun of the weak....uhh week, performs in the real world, where blood is involved, probably theirs.

If someone's amped up on PCP, regardless of whether you use 9/40/45, a center of mass shot won't work. It's going to take several shots, if not an entire magazine. There are only two reasons a man goes down after being shot:
1) a bullet to the upper spine (very small target) or the brain, disabling the central nervous system - instant death.

2) The psychological factor in realizing you've been shot and will die from blood loss without medical attention.

These reasons support needing a higher capacity. Don't count on a head shot all the time. If your getting shot at, the rounds you fire will often be poorly-placed.

The only purpose of me posting the ballistics gel pic, was to illustrate that the three rounds pretty much do the same thing, so pick your poison.

No one was debating the capability of large-bore magnum rounds.

By the way, there is something that exists called the Geneva Convention. It's basically a set rules to abide when fighting a war. Even though it can be broken all the time (I've sharpened my bayonet several times and I've seen guys taken out with .50 cal rounds), we still need to play the part, hence the fmj ammo. I don't know why the change was made from the 1911 to the Beretta but then again, I'm glad it was. I'll take 15 rounds over 7, any day.

In 16 months in Iraq, I've only used a pistol three time. To shoot out a street light that was blinding out our night vision, to pistol whip a prisoner, and to keep it as a sidearm when inside the turret of a .50cal machine gun mounted on a humvee. Point being, everyone now, including officers and staff NCO's are issued either M16A4s or M4s.

In case you didn't already know, the VAST majority of rounds fired in combat are to suppress the enemy, keep his head down, while we maneuver. Does it make sense to go with a heavy hitting round for suppressive fire? Large, powerful rounds striking everywhere but the enemy? Or how about something lighter, to which an infantryman can carry 400 rounds instead of 220 with all his combat gear? It makes ammo more plentiful on everyone and more expendable. Lighter weight makes movement by foot a lot more swift.

Magnum calibers have their place in this world, for sure. But we were talking about 9/40/45.

If you still think there is a huge amount of difference between those three, that's your right.

[ar15barrels]

Revolvers are supposed to be fool proof but it didn't work out that way for me.

There are only levels of fool resistance.
Nothing is foolproof.

[Thorax]

There are only two reasons a man goes down after being shot:
1) a bullet to the upper spine (very small target) or the brain, disabling the central nervous system - instant death.

2) The psychological factor in realizing you've been shot and will die from blood loss without medical attention.

Are you frikkin kidding me ?

Obviously you have never been shot, shot someone, or been in a serious gunfight.

Please stop pretending.

[milotrain]

Last time I got banned for bombing a thread with photos of pointers when it got stupid.


He thinks everyone should go out and find birds and quit while we are behind.

[Grunt81]

Are you frikkin kidding me ?

Obviously you have never been shot, shot someone, or been in a serious gunfight.

Please stop pretending.

Where the f*ck are you from that you have so much combat experience? You don't have a clue what I've done.

You can go ahead and stop pretending you know what it is and what it takes.

Use whatever caliber makes your panties wet.