Help me with long range rifle decisions please!

[ar15barrels]

But it has hash marks on the turret itself so when you go a full revolution from zero you can tell that it's one revolution away. Wouldn't this make it easy to tell if you're at the zero or not?

I teach people to black out the extra marks with a sharpie except for the top-most line that shows.



That way, if your scope turret is ON zero and you see more than 1 mark or you don't seen any marks, you know that you are a turn or more off of your corrrect zero.

The other thing you can do is to count the turns from zero until the knob bottoms out.
Then, put that number on a piece of tape stuck on top of the turret.
Then, you can just run the turret down and back it up that number of turns to verify that you are on the correct turn.
Blacking out the extra lines is easier though.

[JMP]

But it has hash marks on the turret itself so when you go a full revolution from zero you can tell that it's one revolution away. Wouldn't this make it easy to tell if you're at the zero or not?

It's easy to lose track, especially with 5 Mil knobs. Folks that shoot further often find 5 Mil knobs hard to tolerate. All of the scopes I commonly use start at 0 (maybe minus -1 set to accommodate a different load) and dial to the top in 2 turns, counting the whole way up with an indicator to let me know if I am on the second turn. With .308, it isn't that important since you'll rarely go above 10 Mil, 15 Mil max and your bullet won't be stable at that point anyways. There are lines to indicate how many turns you have on most of the small knob scopes, but it is easy to lose track. You need to know how many turns you have up and down just in case you get lost, so there is no mistake about returning to zero.

[JMP]

those of you might have been doing this almost as long as I've been alive.

Not me, but definitely Thorax, I believe he's 90 or 95, which is why he refers to the 65 year old young bucks as "lads".

[Thorax]

Does it help you if I'm a Scot ?

Lad means about the same as 'mate' does to a Aussie.
If I meant you were young I would have said 'we'en laddie' (pronounced when but means wee one).

BTW, I have dual citizenship....if I go over seas I'm sure it takes no creativity to guess which passport I carry.

[Thorax]

I'm slightly confused about what exactly you're talking about. The turrets have 3 screws you can loosen and move the turret so that the 0 on the turret cap lines up with the true zero value. How would I lose my zero and what is a zero stop?

Once you're up and shooting, zero the scope where you want the bullets to hit (on a hunting rifle I use ~about~ 3 inches high at 100 yards (depending on caliber of course) so the bullet is about dead zero at 200 and about 3 inches low at 300 (give or take, it ain't meant to be precise).

Now, after you get exactly what you want, loosen those 3 screws and center the mark on the dial exactly at 0.
Now you can crank up or down and go right back to 0....and hopefully be spot on your original zero.

That's one of the reasons for buying a quality made scope, exact repeatability in turret marks to point of impact.
Cheap or poorly made scopes will not *track* correctly.

[ar15barrels]

It's easy to lose track, especially with 5 Mil knobs. Folks that shoot further often find 5 Mil knobs hard to tolerate.

I'm going to disagree and agree with this reasoning, with the caveat that "further" means "beyond 1400 yards".

I don't shoot beyond 1400yds very often.
I prefer knobs with 5 mils of elevation so that the marks are farther apart.
I want to be able to dial 2.9 or 4.3 mils really fast.
Those smaller diameter (under 2" diameter) knobs with 10 mils on them in a single turn put the clicks too close together for my liking.
It's more common to overshoot the setting you wanted when the clicks are closer together.
5 mils on a knob 2" or under makes for faster adjustments inside 1000yds where you are more likely to need to make fast adjustments.
If you are shooting out at 1400yds, you have more time to make adjustments.

[Thorax]

I'm going to disagree and agree with this reasoning, with the caveat that "further" means "beyond 1400 yards".

I don't shoot beyond 1400yds very often.
I prefer knobs with 5 mils of elevation so that the marks are farther apart.
I want to be able to dial 2.9 or 4.3 mils really fast.
Those smaller diameter (under 2" diameter) knobs with 10 mils on them in a single turn put the clicks too close together for my liking.
It's more common to overshoot the setting you wanted when the clicks are closer together.
5 mils on a knob 2" or under makes for faster adjustments inside 1000yds where you are more likely to need to make fast adjustments.
If you are shooting out at 1400yds, you have more time to make adjustments.

Completely agree, on every point (are ya surprised Randall ?).

I'll also add that I HATE knobs that take that little bit too much toque to turn.
You are trying to turn it very carefully and sneak up on the pressure so that it will only move one or two clicks....but...the knob starts to move then seems to just release and you overshoot 5 clicks or so.
All because a engineer didn't understand how the tension on a stupid knob should work.
By the same token, one that turns too easily.....gahh.
Mushy feeling clicks suck and are hard to distinguish.

[JMP]

I'm going to disagree and agree with this reasoning, with the caveat that "further" means "beyond 1400 yards".

I don't shoot beyond 1400yds very often.
I prefer knobs with 5 mils of elevation so that the marks are farther apart.
I want to be able to dial 2.9 or 4.3 mils really fast.
Those smaller diameter (under 2" diameter) knobs with 10 mils on them in a single turn put the clicks too close together for my liking.
It's more common to overshoot the setting you wanted when the clicks are closer together.
5 mils on a knob 2" or under makes for faster adjustments inside 1000yds where you are more likely to need to make fast adjustments.
If you are shooting out at 1400yds, you have more time to make adjustments.

This is certainly true. I have consolidated most of my rifles and optics, and each one as a specific optic for the purpose. As the distance capability goes up, my knobs get larger and have more adjustment. As you have said, bigger isn't always better. The turret design matters big time. For example, I believe that NF made their BEAST to counter this issue with .2 Mil graduations to fit the 20 Mil knob, then a 0.1 Mil up adjustment. While good on paper and specs, the Wedding Cake Turret system is a disaster, in my opinion.

Some companies make really piss poor turrets. It's a lot harder to make a usuable system with more clicks, so the scopes that can be operated more quickly with crisp adjustments and other features tend to cost quite a bit more.

What I strive to avoid is the third rotation of death. That's where it gets a bit hard. Four rotations, forget about it.

The same is true with reticle preference. This makes a big difference for how far you want to shoot. For higher precision rifles short action rifles, I do not like the big thick cross hair that blocks out the target. But, I don't like a lot of crap on longer distance reticles.

After scouring the earth to find the most suitable scope for your rifle's application, there's almost certainly something on it that you wished were a bit different.

That's why for .308, which is a great cartridge to learn on, there are many good choices without mortgaging the house. I'd get used to this, check out what you want, then decide.

Most of the popular scopes will serve your purposes fine. Just don't go Chinese or BDC--that's where I draw the line.

[Grunt81]

Not me, but definitely Thorax, I believe he's 90 or 95, which is why he refers to the 65 year old young bucks as "lads".

Wow! 95!?!? He's a feisty one for his age! I hope I live that long and am still shooting at that age

Does it help you if I'm a Scot ?

Lad means about the same as 'mate' does to a Aussie.
If I meant you were young I would have said 'we'en laddie' (pronounced when but means wee one).

BTW, I have dual citizenship....if I go over seas I'm sure it takes no creativity to guess which passport I carry.

Thanks for sharing some culture with us. Allow me to make a similar contribution.

Where I grew up, Vato, or Homeboy means about the same as "lad" does to a Scot.

Mocoso, is reserved for the youngest. After your first brawl in the alley behind your house, Chavalo is a commonly used term. And after surviving your first drive-by, you'd be called a Pee wee.

Now that I live in Northridge, all those names are different and no more shootings

Most of the popular scopes will serve your purposes fine. Just don't go Chinese or BDC--that's where I draw the line.

Just for your information, in case you didn't already know (I know its hard to not sound sarcastic online). Nikon has Spot On software on their website, basically a ballistics calculator for all their BDC reticles. You type in the model of the scope, the caliber, the exact bullet (manufacturer, profile, and mass), and the muzzle velocity. It already has the ballistic coefficient stored. It will calculate the range for each open hole or tick mark in the reticle, for each magnification. It will also calculate the range for the top and bottom of the open circles as well, for each magnification. Shooters are encouraged to print out and laminate the compiled "cheat sheet" and tape it to their stock or store it in the cheek rest pouch.

I understand if you care nothing for this. That's fine. But being able to engage near and far targets just simply based on reference points on the vertical cross hair is extremely convenient and expedient, especially from a combat perspective. Based on my ARs performance up to and including, the 600 yd line, I know Nikon's BDC system works.

I believe there is no substitute to being able to make your own windage and elevation adjustments on your rifle's sights, while training your eyes and mind to estimate distance without a laser range finder. A first focal plane mil dot scope helps make range estimation even easier. But can't a mil dot scope be construed as a form of a BDC when used as such? I'd imagine that the future may prove more sophisticated BDC reticles become more common.

[JMP]

Just for your information, in case you didn't already know (I know its hard to not sound sarcastic online). Nikon has Spot On software on their website, basically a ballistics calculator for all their BDC reticles. You type in the model of the scope, the caliber, the exact bullet (manufacturer, profile, and mass), and the muzzle velocity. It already has the ballistic coefficient stored. It will calculate the range for each open hole or tick mark in the reticle, for each magnification. It will also calculate the range for the top and bottom of the open circles as well, for each magnification. Shooters are encouraged to print out and laminate the compiled "cheat sheet" and tape it to their stock or store it in the cheek rest pouch.

My best advice for you is to save your money and get a real scope.

[Grunt81]

My best advice for you is to save your money and get a real scope.

"Real" is highly subjective. What makes me sleep easy at night is knowing I am proficient in pistol, rifle, and shotgun within the realistic distances I would need to protect myself and my family. Everything else, including the the ability to make a hit beyond 300 yards is a bonus. Think about that, in the grand scheme of things.

My Nikon package scope, comes standard on the Savage Trophy HUNTER. It is by no means a worthy long range scope, being limited to 9x. It's barely worthy at 100 yards for me, solely because I prefer at least 12x . I'm not insinuating it is as great as any scope you own, but it's definitely "really" on my rifle right now and it "really" shot that group under a dime at 100 yards. And I have absolutely no reservation in pushing that scope until I (and no one else), make the decision that I have reached the limit of its capabilities. I also have no doubt in its performance for keeping it as a dedicated hunting scope.

I'm happy I decided to stick with this thread to the end, since I've gained valuable information from you all. I have no illusions - it seems that any precision rifle, likely to do well in competition, and accessories, should cost in the ball park of $2,500 and up. I'll plan accordingly when I cross that bridge.

As it stands, my hobbies do get expensive from my deep sea and freshwater fishing rods, tackle boxes, and fishing trips, to my Ultegra and Tiagra road bikes and Shimano mountain bikes, down to my newest endeavor, which is brewing my own e liquid for my mechanical mods. Shooting and reloading are my most enjoyable pastimes and often keep me from going to the gym. While I don't own anything near the most expensive in the spectrum of equipment from any of my hobbies, I definitely always have something to do to take my mind off of the struggles of my present and past....well, then again, not everyone has $1,800 invested in a varmint-style AR-15, one of the seven firearms I own by age 30.

I'll be graduating from CSUN in May with a degree in Medical Laboratory Science and a minor in Chemistry. As it stands, my income is limited to working part time in a biology research lab, and the stipend earned by being a disabled veteran. The money I'm saving now is going towards a $4,000 move to the south, where my wife and I will buy land for hunting and shooting. The point I'm trying to make is that not everyone who wants to shoot a rifle accurately and far away, is already established in life. Some of us are still climbing the hill to get to where you guys are who can fork out $6,000 in firearms and optics every few years.

I'll get a precision rifle someday, one I can be proud to pass down to my son. But I have a lot of ground to cover until then...

Dam, who knew your one sentence would provoke such a long-winded outburst! Haha.

Salud,

Fernando

[ar15barrels]

Completely agree, on every point (are ya surprised Randall ?).

I'll also add that I HATE knobs that take that little bit too much toque to turn.
You are trying to turn it very carefully and sneak up on the pressure so that it will only move one or two clicks....but...the knob starts to move then seems to just release and you overshoot 5 clicks or so.
All because a engineer didn't understand how the tension on a stupid knob should work.
By the same token, one that turns too easily.....gahh.
Mushy feeling clicks suck and are hard to distinguish.

Many knobs have adjustable clicker tension if you know where to look...

[ar15barrels]

Nikon has Spot On software on their website, basically a ballistics calculator for all their BDC reticles. You type in the model of the scope, the caliber, the exact bullet (manufacturer, profile, and mass), and the muzzle velocity. It already has the ballistic coefficient stored. It will calculate the range for each open hole or tick mark in the reticle, for each magnification. It will also calculate the range for the top and bottom of the open circles as well, for each magnification. Shooters are encouraged to print out and laminate the compiled "cheat sheet" and tape it to their stock or store it in the cheek rest pouch.

How do you deal with weather effects?
Having a real scope and a handheld weather station is the way to go...

[Grunt81]

How do you deal with weather effects?
Having a real scope and a handheld weather station is the way to go...

I answered this before it was asked, in the rant above.This is not a hard one to figure out. If there's inclement weather, you still have turns upon turns in elevation and windage to get on target. If a 12x nikon bdc were to be used at 1,000 yards, it would make a lot of sense to disregard the bdc all together, and make adjustments the old-fashioned way, just like on a "real" scope.

[ar15barrels]

it would make a lot of sense to disregard the bdc all together, and make adjustments the old-fashioned way, just like on a "real" scope.

Tell that to all the people who think that BDC's are actually useful...