Long Rang Shooting

[Clever]

RUGER 22LR SEMI, TAUGHT ME THE TRUE BASICS OF SHOOTING..THAT WAS 30 YEARS AGO AND I STILL USE THE SAME BASICS.. ITS TRUE WALK BEFORE YOU RUN.

[milotrain]

Nearly everyone I know who really shoots well still spends time with their .22LRs to keep them honest. These are Master and High Master highpower shooters who are always checking themselves with a .22 benchmark.

A good friend who shoots smallbore almost exclusively now started in highpower and long range. Won a number of competitions with a .308 at 1k even though there were ballistically better rounds on the line, and now routinely cleans the metric prone target.

If you can shoot a .22 well then you can shoot long range well. You still need to learn wind and ranging but you can begin with wind by shooting the .22 at 200 yards and ranging is just time spent on the glass.

[Altahick]

Hmm buy this, buy that.... I'm so confused.

what is your budget? what is your level of experience?

[milotrain]

I will go out on a limb now and say his 4th target will be smaller than 90% of those posting on this thread have/will Ever shoot at the same distance.

I'll take that bet. 30 or so people in this thread and I'd make the educated guess that the following will outshoot him.

Russ69
Randall
highpower790
Steve-in-29
Killshot44
cobrared
humbly, me.

Another thing that has not been discussed is that the 6BR is not a trivial round to run load dev on. I wouldn't recommend a new shooter start with a round that they HAVE to reload and is finicky about it's reloads. In this case .308 or .30-06 would shine, but even better is .22lr. When a new driver wants to get into racing most people recomend that they take whatever car they have and start small by autocrossing. You don't start someone by telling them to race spec miata and "oh by the way, you should learn how to weld and build a roll cage too." Success is found by reducing variables.

[janus408]

This thread is way too long, with too much bickering.

There is a reason so many experienced shooters (I am not one of them) are recommending .22lr. There is a reason so many experienced shooters on SH build .22lr trainers.

Really, if you are into long range/precision shooter, there is no reason not to own a .22lr. For the price of a decent scope on a .308 or larger rifle, you can build a full .22lr setup + ammo. So why not start there.

/endthread

[Steve_In_29]

Steve-in-29
So he can't shoot a 6BR at shorter distances if he wants to? Why not?

Please tell us how much it will cost the OP to shoot 10,000 rounds of 6BR as opposed to the same amount of match .22 ammo. It's simple economics for anyone that isn't independently wealthy.

Plus now he needs to master the not inconsequential art of reloading the 6BR before he is even able to hit the range for practice. You don't want the OP to "waste his time and money" on a .22 setup but you want him to spend more then the .22 would cost (for the reloading gear) before he even knows if he has the requisite skills and dedication to compete in the long range world.

Please copy the part of my post were I said for him to skip the fundamentals.Your entitled to your own opinion just not your own facts...

You can do your own cut and paste to answer your question.

The "fact" is my post only stated "anyone" (note the none specificness) that thinks a NEW SHOOTER should try to master the basics of marksmanship and build (through tens of thousands of repetitions) the requisite shooting skills with a high-power and costly cartridge instead of with a .22 is an "idiot".

It's interesting that since my post makes no mention of "skipping the fundamentals" at all and if as you claim, you never said (or implied) "skip the fundamentals" that you still felt the need to identify yourself with the heretofore unnamed "idiot" in my post.

It appears your reading comprehension is as lacking as your shooting advice.

[LynnJr]

Why would he need to reload for the 6BR?
This is were you guy lose me.You make stuff up because you simply don't know the answers.Why don't you know the answers because you don't ask questions of those that do know.You would rather argue than learn something.
Why reload when new factory ammo runs $39.99 a box.As you don't even know that why would anyone trust your advice?
I like shooters with tenacity but when I read this I realise something is amiss.

Plus now he needs to master the not inconsequential art of reloading the 6BR before he is even able to hit the range for practice. You don't want the OP to "waste his time and money" on a .22 setup but you want him to spend more then the .22 would cost (for the reloading gear) before he even knows if he has the requisite skills and dedication to compete in the long range world.

[CSACANNONEER]

Steve-in-29
AR15Barrels
So he spends $2000 playing with a 22 for a year if I tallied your post right. Merc1138 by the way thinks $2000 is absolutely nuts.
So he is now out $2000 and still needs a rifle and ammo for longrange which is why he started this thread in the first place.I went cheap with a Savage and was told that spending that much on a longrange rifle is delusional so maybe just maybe these posters have either never shot longrange or they got moms password and are in big trouble when she finds out.

I have offered him two opportunities to shoot world class rifles at 600 yards with myself as the coach free of any charge.I would also like to post his targets for everyone here to view and I don't think he will be embarrassed at all with the results.
I will go out on a limb now and say his 4th target will be smaller than 90% of those posting on this thread have/will Ever shoot at the same distance.

First, How would he "be out" $2000 after shooting 5000 rounds? The way I see it is that after 5000 rounds of solid training with Randall's proposed set up, he would be ahead at least $3000 based on $1 per round of half azz decent not quite match quality centerfire ammo. Of course, that doesn't even account for the fact that he will still have $1400 worth of his original investment. So, after a solid year of shooting, he would have a years worth of experience, a nice .22lr set up and $3000 in savings to invest in a centerfire outfit. He'll also have a much better idea of exactly what he needs for his specific anticipated application. Yep, after a year, he'll have saved enough money on ammo to almost buy a basic centerfire set up for not much more than the amount his $2000 investment has saved him and, he'll get the added bonus of having a nice rimfire rifle for free.


As far as the 90% thing goes, the last record group I shot at a 1000 yard match was 4 7/8". But, after just two matches with my rifle, a friend of mine, who had never shoot 1000 yards before this June, was able to shot a 4 1/2" group at the FCSA World Championships this July. So, while I coached him a bit and he's produced a smaller group than I have, he has a long history of competitive rimfire shooting. Was it the coaching or his mastering the fundamentals with rimfires? BTW, the first record group he ever shot at 1000 was sub 7". Was that beginners luck, skill or great coaching? Since I was his coach, I'll be the first to rule that out. I've got to go with his ability to shoot long range is directly related to his previous experience shooting rimfires.

[janus408]

I've got to go with his ability to shoot long range is directly related to his previous experience shooting rimfires.

Another great place to end this thread. What you learn on the .22lr transfers over to larger calibers and longer distances. So to save yourself money, or to take advantage of local ranges that many have a max distance of 300yards, go for a .22lr.

[Steve_In_29]

Why would he need to reload for the 6BR?
This is were you guy lose me.You make stuff up because you simply don't know the answers.Why don't you know the answers because you don't ask questions of those that do know.You would rather argue than learn something.
Why reload when new factory ammo runs $39.99 a box.As you don't even know that why would anyone trust your advice?
I like shooters with tenacity but when I read this I realise something is amiss.

Excuse me for thinking that someone going to the not inconsiderable expense of a full blown 1000yd setup would want to handload his ammo to wring every iota of accuracy he could from it.

You notably didn't answer my question as to cost but I will do the math for the OP based on your provided info.

6BR: 10,000rds divided by a 20rd box = 500 boxes x $39.99 = $19,995.00
.22: 10,000rds divided by a 500rd brick = 20 bricks x $59.99 = $1,199.80 (Wolf MT)

So it would cost the OP roughly $18,000.00 to avoid "wasting his money" on a .22 setup (rifle/scope/ammo).
If ever the words "EPIC FAIL" applied, this is it.

[LynnJr]

You notably didn't answer my question as to cost but I will do the math for the OP based on your provided info.

6BR: 10,000rds divided by a 20rd box = 500 boxes x $39.99 = $19,995.00
.22: 10,000rds divided by a 500rd brick = 20 bricks x $59.99 = $1,199.80 (Wolf MT)

So it would cost the OP roughly $18,000.00 to avoid "wasting his money" on a .22 setup (rifle/scope/ammo).
If ever the words "EPIC FAIL" applied, this is it.

Ooops did I forgot to answer a question? As you don't know anything about the 6BR which is extremely popular in longrange shooting I figured why waste the bandwith.
His 22 ammo will run him Eley Match .22lr Ammunition Box of 50
Starting at: $13.70 $2750 for decent stuff not the best stuff.I know you wanted him to shoot junk ammo in the 22 so you can try and make a point but lets atleast be realistic.

You also failed to mention how many new barrels he would have to put on his 6BR gun to shoot 500 boxes of ammo but maybe 500 boxes is normal wear and tear on YOUR centerfire barrels?
Can you tell me how many boxes of centerfire ammo you shot in 2012?
Can you give us a percentage of guys shooting longrange that shoot 500 boxes of ammo per year?
Is it 80% or higher?


CSAcannoneer
If I take this guy out to the range what size 5 shot groups would he be shooting without his 22 fundamental training on his very first day? I want to gauge how much larger his groups are going to be with no experience versus spending $2750 on rimfire ammo and $2600 on the rifle or $5350.

Earlier in this thread someone accused myself of not liking 22's so I am including a picture here.I don't know anything about the picture or what it is of or about so maybe that poster can help me out here? Is it even firearms related?

[Merc1138]

You notably didn't answer my question as to cost but I will do the math for the OP based on your provided info.

6BR: 10,000rds divided by a 20rd box = 500 boxes x $39.99 = $19,995.00
.22: 10,000rds divided by a 500rd brick = 20 bricks x $59.99 = $1,199.80 (Wolf MT)

So it would cost the OP roughly $18,000.00 to avoid "wasting his money" on a .22 setup (rifle/scope/ammo).
If ever the words "EPIC FAIL" applied, this is it.

Ooops did I forgot to answer a question? As you don't know anything about the 6BR which is extremely popular in longrange shooting I figured why waste the bandwith.
His 22 ammo will run him Eley Match .22lr Ammunition Box of 50
Starting at: $13.70 $2750 for decent stuff not the best stuff.I know you wanted him to shoot junk ammo in the 22 so you can try and make a point but lets atleast be realistic.

You also failed to mention how many new barrels he would have to put on his 6BR gun to shoot 500 boxes of ammo but maybe 500 boxes is normal wear and tear on YOUR centerfire barrels?
Can you tell me how many boxes of centerfire ammo you shot in 2012?
Can you give us a percentage of guys shooting longrange that shoot 500 boxes of ammo per year?
Is it 80% or higher?


CSAcannoneer
If I take this guy out to the range what size 5 shot groups would he be shooting without his 22 fundamental training on his very first day? I want to gauge how much larger his groups are going to be with no experience versus spending $2750 on rimfire ammo and $2600 on the rifle or $5350.

Earlier in this thread someone accused myself of not liking 22's so I am including a picture here.I don't know anything about the picture or what it is of or about so maybe that poster can help me out here? Is it even firearms related?

If you're trying to make some mockery of people, you're not very good at it(it'd be nice if you could also learn how to use the quote function). Yes, I'm aware of who Bill Calfee is, you're not him. How you got that embroidery or what it's supposed to mean is pretty irrelevant, so if you're hoping for it to bring you some "cred", nope.

The fact is that your advice is generally terrible, your attitude sucks, you're bad at math, you can't even propose a budget to someone for a rifle and include the scope, and now you want to have some superiority complex over Eley match as if Wolf MT is the equivalent of Blazer bulk. You may be a great shooter, but I doubt many people will give a crap considering your attitude. If there was such a way for someone to be so over the top to the point of being a blight on the shooting community in general... you've managed to pull it off.

[CSACANNONEER]

LynnJr,

I don't think anyone here has questioned your shooting ability. But, many here are questioning your method of training new shooters. The simple facts are that a new shooter will spend less money and have the access to get quality trigger time at many more ranges throughout the country if he/she has a rimfire rig to learn on. For me, the nearest 1000 yard range which I have good access to is about 3 hours away. I can shoot 600 yards at several places within an hour of me but, I can shoot 100-200 yards at those ranges plus many more which are closer to me including my front yard. You've got to admit that good trigger time with a rimfire is a lot better than not having the ability to drive hours to a range so you don't get any trigger time. Right? It's obviously easier and cheaper for a new shooter to learn the fundamentals without having to make a six hour trip to a 1000 yard range. Quality practice with a rimfire is 1000X better than zero practice without one. That said, I will strongly encourage the OP to take you up on your offer to give him some experience and one on one coaching. That alone should save him a year or two's worth of trying to learn on his own like I had to. Lucky for me that I have been able to glean tidbits here and there from the likes of Lynn McMurdo, Skip Talbot, Randy Dierks, Paula Dirks, Lee Rasmusen, Sheri, Rasmusen, Mark Avakian, Brett Berger, Buddy Clifton and many others over the years but, no one ever gave me the generous opportunity that you're offering the OP.

[toby]

Oh! another my dick is bigger than your dick thread...

[fonzy]

^You called? ^