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STEYR SCOUT RIFLE

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  • #31
    elSquid
    In Memoriam
    • Aug 2007
    • 11844

    Originally posted by NapalmCheese
    Cooper wasn't thinking about a SHTF Red Dawn Revolutionary War single man defending his block from tyrannical dictatorship while supporting an underground resistance scenario when he thought up the scout rifle. He was thinking about making a single rifle that would be useful enough that any man could reasonably own one and would fit the bill for procuring food and defending self and home from animals and intruders. The closest he came to describing any scenario where you might want a semi-auto rifle was in describing that a scout was any man whose job was to travel alone in wild places to gather intel, and in that would require a rifle suitable for killing animals and defending himself until he can break contact.
    Just to expand on that...

    Cooper wrote a chapter in "To ride..." about general purpose rifles and semiauto. He was responding to the notion that an EBR was a necessary purchase for the average joe.

    Some cut-n-paste from the book:

    ( Which is a great read and highly recommended!
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IO01ZDO/ )


    We have been more than a bit perplexed in the conduct of our rifle instruction by the widespread notion that only a twenty-shot semi-automatic rifle has any general utility in today's scene. People have suggested that they would be interested in learning to shoot but they cannot afford a semi-automatic battle rifle in order to have something with which to work. There are indeed some good points about the semi-autos, but they are by no means the only answer to the rifle problem.

    <snip a bunch of paragraphs>

    In studying the circumstances under which an individual owner might be called upon to use a rifle in defense of his life and property, one is drawn to the conclusion that a battle scene is almost certainly not going to be involved. A solitary rifleman, or a small group operating individually from cover, can do enormously effective work - but rarely with more than two shots from the same firing position. It thus becomes a question as to whether rapid repeat shots delivered from a large capacity magazine are of any real value. More important might be a beautifully crisp trigger and very accurate shooting. Anyone familiar with irregular combat can tell you that when one is fired upon from long distance, without warning, it is extremely difficult to tell whence the shot came. The "bolt from the blue" is followed by a moment of bewildered silence, during which time the recipients adjust themselves to the fact that someone has just decked one of them. This will nearly always give the rifleman a chance for a second shot, even if his rifle is a single-loader, but the third shot is definitely going to pin him down. At that point his adversaries (who can be expected to outnumber him) will either flee or get after him. If they flee he has won his point. If they get after him he will be faced with the problem of changing his position so that they will be attacking into thin air.

    What I am driving at is that in nearly all individual situations the rifleman is going to need range, power, control, and ease of movement more than volume of fire. There are exceptions of course, but before we dismiss the precision rifle in favor of the Sturmgewehr we should know why we are doing so. I certainly will not fault a man who has considered every angle and decided that he can only be happy with a SIG 510, but I am suspicious of those who reach this conclusion without having examined the matter in depth.

    <snip a bunch of discussion>

    The more I ponder this matter the more I am led to believe that a man alone, fighting for his survival, is probably better armed with a good, strong, modern sporter than he is with any form of battle rifle.

    <snip many paragraphs, coming to conclusion>

    The point is this: Do not feel that you are not with it because you do not own a Sturmgewehr. As in all forms of conflict success is much more a matter of the man than of his gear. Success in riflecraft is a matter of good shooting, and -generally speaking - good shooting is more easily conducted with a good grade sporter than it is with a military rifle. It is important to note also that good quality sporters can be bought today - complete - for something like one-third the cost of even an inferior battle rifle. Just think of all the ammunition you can buy with the money you did not spend on the semi-auto! And practice, they say, makes perfect.


    Of course the question comes up: "are you really going to grab your bolt gun when you hear a noise downstairs at 3AM?"

    Well, you have a 1911 close by, right?

    -- Michael

    Comment

    • #32
      Click Boom
      Calguns Addict
      • Nov 2013
      • 6955



      It seems like such a goofy rifle.

      The mvp scout is 9 pounds with the scope. front-heavy, because it has DBM, so it doesn't really need a scout scope. I suppose the scout rifle concept made more sense when most all rifles were fed from the top, semis were less reliable, and only 30cal was halal for Cooper because high BC boolits were less prominent.

      With DBM.prevalence, are scout rifles still relevant? Why not just get a good regular bolt action with detachable mags? Scout scopes aren't as good as regular scopes of the same price. Contemporary "scouts" would be better served with a lightweight AR-15, an ACOG, and MK262 or similar. Even an SR-25 and an optic weighs less than the mossberg.

      Good reasons for putting together a scout rifle in today's world are:
      - Cooper Nostalgia
      - you have a classic base rifle for a scout rifle like an ishapore 2A that you want to sporterize for fun. (This is the best reason IMO, and could be a lot of fun if you don't mind being called Bubba). Well-done sporterize jobs on old common milsurps are downright cool.

      YMMV

      Comment

      • #33
        Click Boom
        Calguns Addict
        • Nov 2013
        • 6955

        Originally posted by ExtremeX
        $1350-$1450 does sound lower, I think I was seeing $1750-2k last time I was in the market. I remember one of the models with a optic peaking in at around $2500... but my memory could be a bit fuzzy on all that.

        Ill have to look into it again, might be time to get one. I see a 243 and 7mm-08 on the menu as well, both of those excite me a lot more than a 223 and 308.
        Man, for that kinda dough why not get a Tikka CTR and a nice optic?

        The Canadian Arctic Patrol Ranger dudes believe the CTR ie reliable enough for polar bear and wolf defense. Is it just a cool factor thing.

        Comment

        • #34
          NapalmCheese
          Calguns Addict
          • Feb 2011
          • 5958

          Originally posted by Click Boom
          I suppose the scout rifle concept made more sense when most all rifles were fed from the top, semis were less reliable, and only 30cal was halal for Cooper because high BC boolits were less prominent.

          With DBM.prevalence, are scout rifles still relevant? Why not just get a good regular bolt action with detachable mags? Scout scopes aren't as good as regular scopes of the same price. Contemporary "scouts" would be better served with a lightweight AR-15, an ACOG, and MK262 or similar. Even an SR-25 and an optic weighs less than the mossberg.
          Cooper's reasoning for the scout scope was that it clears the ejection port and clip slot allowing for easier and more rapid loading. While a DBM allows more rapid loading, one reason for going with clips (and therefore with the scout scope) is that in general use clips weigh less than magazines, clips are less bulky than magazines, and if you lose a clip you can still feed your rifle. Have you ever tried feeding a bolt action DBM rifle without a magazine?

          As for the .30 cal, it wasn't the only choice, but he recognized the .308 or (in certain circumstances) the .30-06 as appropriate choices for the role given the ubiquity and performance of each cartridge.

          He preferred bolt action rifles over semi-autos simply because in his lifetime he'd never seen a semi-auto in an appropriate cartridge that was light enough to fit his definition of scout rifle. The SCAR fits the bill nowadays, but nothing else really does. Though, given what he expected out of a cartridge a 6.5G AR is getting pretty close too. At any rate, an AR-15 with MK262 would never have been considered by him for this kind of work, the cartridge is just too anemic for what he was looking for.

          As for relevancy.... The scout rifle idea is as relevant as it ever was, which is to say it still fits the same purpose. Most people however have no need of such a rifle. Of course the other part of that story is that Cooper wanted this to be a rifle every person would be buy BECAUSE it doesn't have a strict purpose.
          Calguns.net, where everyone responding to your post is a Navy Force Delta Recon 6 Sniperator.

          Comment

          • #35
            23 Blast
            Veteran Member
            • Dec 2009
            • 3754

            Man, I do love these discussions, even if we've beaten the entire field of the Kentucky Derby into mincemeat and glue.

            In the usage of the general American public, and based on sales, there already exists a perfectly good "general purpose rifle." One that has been used to hunt quite literally every game animal on the North American continent, has undoubtedly been used in pursuit of two-legged game, and contains, IMO, the "spirit" of a Scout rifle, if not the listed features --- the Winchester 1894 in 30-30 (and it's cousin the Marlin 336).
            "Two dead?!? HOW?!?"
            [sigh] "Bullets, mortar fire, heavy artillery salvos, terminal syphilis, bad luck --- the usual things, Captain."

            Comment

            • #36
              TMB 1
              Calguns Addict
              • Dec 2012
              • 7153

              Originally posted by 23 Blast
              Man, I do love these discussions, even if we've beaten the entire field of the Kentucky Derby into mincemeat and glue.

              In the usage of the general American public, and based on sales, there already exists a perfectly good "general purpose rifle." One that has been used to hunt quite literally every game animal on the North American continent, has undoubtedly been used in pursuit of two-legged game, and contains, IMO, the "spirit" of a Scout rifle, if not the listed features --- the Winchester 1894 in 30-30 (and it's cousin the Marlin 336).
              That is the Brooklyn Assault Rifle.
              sigpic

              Comment

              • #37
                elSquid
                In Memoriam
                • Aug 2007
                • 11844

                Originally posted by 23 Blast
                Man, I do love these discussions, even if we've beaten the entire field of the Kentucky Derby into mincemeat and glue.

                In the usage of the general American public, and based on sales, there already exists a perfectly good "general purpose rifle." One that has been used to hunt quite literally every game animal on the North American continent, has undoubtedly been used in pursuit of two-legged game, and contains, IMO, the "spirit" of a Scout rifle, if not the listed features --- the Winchester 1894 in 30-30 (and it's cousin the Marlin 336).
                From "To ride..."


                The idea behind the scout rifle is not new. The famous old Mannlicher 6.5 carbine was a step in this direction, as was the equally famous Winchester Model 94 30-30 carbine. The British "Jungle Carbine" of World War II was another example of the breed, and finally there came the ill-fated Remington 600 carbines of a decade ago - excellent guns in most ways but ahead of their time. I acquired a 600 in 308 and fitted it with a Leupold 2X intermediate-eye-relief telescope. This laid the groundwork for the scout concept now being studied by the conference. This little gun was an absolute delight, and it sits in my rack today. Its decisive drawback, of course, is that neither the rifle nor the telescope is any longer manufactured. Also it is imperfect in some other ways, and the builders of new versions of the scout rifle will seek to overcome all such weaknesses.

                The consensus of the conference was that modern technology enables us to produce a rifle which need not sacrifice either power or accuracy to convenience.




                -- Michael

                Comment

                • #38
                  csMaverick
                  Member
                  • Jul 2014
                  • 325

                  They're about $1300 or less.
                  sigpic
                  I feel the need...

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