STEYR SCOUT RIFLE

[1859sharps]

Edit to add:
It certainly seems to have been a .308 when I played (from what I can tell), but I could have sworn it was a .223 as I remember thinking "why the hell would they have a sniper rifle in .223?". Heh, who knows, this was nearly 17 years ago!

I can't speak to CS-Condition Zero and the other off shoots, but the original from the betas I played through current source version the scout was 308. But there are and were semi auto "sniper" rifles in 223 in the game. maybe you are remembering them.

Steyr Scout in 308 has been on my wish list for a long time... I wish it was a little more affordable but its one of my favorite rifles. Its such a pleasure to use.

I don't think I would ever buy one in 223.

Its funny someone mentioned CS, that's how I learned about it in the first place.

I know affordable is very subjective, but the price of a steyr has never been lower. 1350ish through 1450ish off buds.

[ExtremeX]

$1350-$1450 does sound lower, I think I was seeing $1750-2k last time I was in the market. I remember one of the models with a optic peaking in at around $2500... but my memory could be a bit fuzzy on all that.

Ill have to look into it again, might be time to get one. I see a 243 and 7mm-08 on the menu as well, both of those excite me a lot more than a 223 and 308.

[hambam105]

Without Jeff Cooper pushing the scout rifle concept...

With the low powered scope mounted that far forward good luck with a low light shot.

[1859sharps]

$1350-$1450 does sound lower, I think I was seeing $1750-2k last time I was in the market. I remember one of the models with a optic peaking in at around $2500... but my memory could be a bit fuzzy on all that.

Ill have to look into it again, might be time to get one. I see a 243 and 7mm-08 on the menu as well, both of those excite me a lot more than a 223 and 308.

If memory serves, when the Steyr Scout first became available, the rifle only full manufacture suggested retail was $2000. The cooper package was $2500/2600. the cooper package had extra magazines, sling, scope, mounts etc.

you can buy the rifle only off of Buds for the 1350 - 1450 range. depends on color and how the wind is blowing with them. they change prices all the time.

With the low powered scope mounted that far forward good luck with a low light shot.

From what I have read, Cooper was never happy with the sight systems available for the scout. he was pretty sold on the forward mounted low powered scopes, but was not thrilled about any of the actual available options for this.

I have no way of knowing what his opinion would be on going with a red dot scope as he died before they came into their own. he was aware of them from what I read and if I remember right he primary beef was batteries would expire quickly. at the time this was a pretty valid point.

having said that, we don't actually need to know his opinion to have "permission" to explore other sighting options. we know the concept and goals of the scout rifle, and we know that forward mounted scopes are not a defining feature. We also know that Cooper was always looking for genuine improvement. Though he appeared to have a high bar for what he felt was improvement. but again, we don't need his actual stamp of approval to explore alternate sighting systems. we know the concept goals, and that is all we need if we choose to search for a better "mouse trap".

Personally, I am wondering if red dot scopes are the next gen sighting system for a scout rifle. some are already playing with them over on the scout rifle forum.

[Carcassonne]

http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/scout-rifle/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_rifle

and capable of hitting man-sized targets out to 450 meters without scopes.


Defining characteristicsAccuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less (4") at 200 meters/yards (3 shot groups).

The first part above about being able to hit a human sized target out to 450 meters seems doable, but without a scope it would be very hard for anyone who didn't have very good eye sight.

The second part about 2 MOA @ 200 meters seems easier.


.

[elSquid]

Personally, I am wondering if red dot scopes are the next gen sighting system for a scout rifle. some are already playing with them over on the scout rifle forum.

Red dots definitely are an option. Low powered variables are very popular today also.

Since this is now a 'Scout rifle theory' thread...

...saw this today while poking around on youtube. It's the "original scout" and the testers compare speed and accuracy of this setup vs iron sights. ( starting around 3:00 )



-- Michael

[23 Blast]

Debating Scout Rifle Theory is always fun. Cooper didn't have set-in-stone specifications, rather, his ideas were more generalizations, and tended, it seemed, to describe a refined definition of the rifles that had been called "carbines" in military circles throughout the late 1800s and up to WW2. Not Carbines as in M1 Carbines - those semi-auto guns our troops carried into battle, but carbines in the sense that they were short rfiles chambered in a full-power cartridge, and typically issued to non-infantry troops.

These carbines still tended to be rather heavy and long (after all, the famed Mauser K98k of WW2 fame was considered a "carbine" - K standing for Karabiner - of the original Gewehr 1898), but Cooper's vision seemed to be a rifle that would be one that could be carried all day long on a hunt, shot a few times, and lethal enough for game animals up to around 1000 pounds. (Hence why .223 isn't a true scout caliber).

In practice usage, though - I do think that a true "do everything" rifle would be something more akin to a Kalashnikov. Compact and lightweight? Check. (Well, sort of - AKs are kinda heavy) Caliber strong enough to kill 1000 pounds animals? Not with one shot, but who says you're limited to one shot if you're defending yourself from a bear or moose?

[elSquid]

In practice usage, though - I do think that a true "do everything" rifle would be something more akin to a Kalashnikov. Compact and lightweight? Check. (Well, sort of - AKs are kinda heavy) Caliber strong enough to kill 1000 pounds animals? Not with one shot, but who says you're limited to one shot if you're defending yourself from a bear or moose?

Crappy trigger, lots of sharp edges, poor sights, mediocre scope mounting...wouldn't you rather have a nice Steyr scout in 308 with a decent low power scope?



-- Michael

[Lor]

Crappy trigger, lots of sharp edges, poor sights, mediocre scope mounting...wouldn't you rather have a nice Steyr scout in 308 with a decent low power scope?



-- Michael

Yes I would...!!!

[repoman1984]

it's a 308 in CS

I'm no longer ashamed to point this out

[23 Blast]

Crappy trigger, lots of sharp edges, poor sights, mediocre scope mounting...wouldn't you rather have a nice Steyr scout in 308 with a decent low power scope?



-- Michael

Sure - if I were certain that the only living things I'd ever encounter while carrying the piece would be creatures incapable of shooting back.

A true "do-everything" rifle, IMO would be one capable of (successfully) engaging multiple armed targets. A bolt-action rifle is a decidedly poor choice for that role.

[elSquid]

Sure - if I were certain that the only living things I'd ever encounter while carrying the piece would be creatures incapable of shooting back.

A true "do-everything" rifle, IMO would be one capable of (successfully) engaging multiple armed targets. A bolt-action rifle is a decidedly poor choice for that role.

I think that Cooper wrote in one of his books: when it's a single person against a bunch of adversaries, the best plan is to probably shoot-n-scoot. Basically "ambush" with a single shot, and as they take cover, you run. If you have some distance between you and the bad guys this is a workable strategy.

At close range, you're probably ****ed regardless of what kind of rifle you have. When you put a couple of 5.56 rounds in badguy#1s chest, what are the other armed badguys going to be doing?

While I think that for a general purpose rifle that semi auto doesn't seem to be necessary, I'd agree that for a pure defensive rifle I'd want a semiauto...maybe I can get bad guy #2 as well before BGs #3 and #4 ventilate me?

Ah well. I always get a kick out of scout rifle threads and everyone's take on GP/utility rifles.

-- Michael

[NapalmCheese]

Sure - if I were certain that the only living things I'd ever encounter while carrying the piece would be creatures incapable of shooting back.

A true "do-everything" rifle, IMO would be one capable of (successfully) engaging multiple armed targets. A bolt-action rifle is a decidedly poor choice for that role.

There were plenty of semi-auto rifles around when Cooper et. al iterated over the idea of what a scout rifle is. This includes such venerable designs as the AK-47 and the AR-15 but Cooper found them too unreliable or too heavy or chambered in an inadequate cartridge. The SCAR 17 is probably the closest you're going to get to a semi auto scout rifle and at 7+ lbs unloaded with no optic it is at the very upper end of the definition (I know nothing of the reliability or ease with which one may be fixed).

Cooper wasn't thinking about a SHTF Red Dawn Revolutionary War single man defending his block from tyrannical dictatorship while supporting an underground resistance scenario when he thought up the scout rifle. He was thinking about making a single rifle that would be useful enough that any man could reasonably own one and would fit the bill for procuring food and defending self and home from animals and intruders. The closest he came to describing any scenario where you might want a semi-auto rifle was in describing that a scout was any man whose job was to travel alone in wild places to gather intel, and in that would require a rifle suitable for killing animals and defending himself until he can break contact.

His notions were very wild westish and certainly showed his age; and for those among other reasons I feel that the 'scout rifle' is a set in stone definition that began with Cooper, evolved with Cooper, and reached its finality with Cooper's death. Any rifle that doesn't fit his definition is not a scout rifle. That being said, any rifle where a reasonable argument can be made that 'Cooper would have liked it this way' (i.e. the addition of red dots, a lightweight semi-auto that fits his criteria, etc.) would be a scout style rifle IMO, as we can only guess what Cooper would have thought of it.

The Steyr Scout in .308 or .7mm-08 is pretty well the living definition of Cooper's idea, everything since then is an interpretation.

[23 Blast]

His notions were very wild westish and certainly showed his age; and for those among other reasons I feel that the 'scout rifle' is a set in stone definition that began with Cooper, evolved with Cooper, and reached its finality with Cooper's death. Any rifle that doesn't fit his definition is not a scout rifle. That being said, any rifle where a reasonable argument can be made that 'Cooper would have liked it this way' (i.e. the addition of red dots, a lightweight semi-auto that fits his criteria, etc.) would be a scout style rifle IMO, as we can only guess what Cooper would have thought of it.

The Steyr Scout in .308 or .7mm-08 is pretty well the living definition of Cooper's idea, everything since then is an interpretation.

Fair enough - Since Cooper himself collaborated on the Steyr, then that, and only that, could be considered a "true" scout rifle. (Or was that the Ruger?)

Anyhow, it's interesting you mention "Wild West" romanticism as a possible influence in Cooper's concept of the Scout - the "One Good Man, on One Good Horse, With One Good Rifle, making One Good Shot." The reality of the Wild West (at least as it pertains to those outlaws, professional gunfighters, gang members, and others whose lifestyle included lots of gunfire) is that they always tended to use the guns that gave them the highest rate of fire, and which were rugged and reliable. As soon as repeating firearms (revolvers and lever actions) were available, they gained wide acceptance throughout the West (and any other wild places where a man might be more or less on his own for days or weeks at a time). Had Glocks and AR15 rifles been available then, there's no doubt these same outlaws and gangsters would have used those.

[NapalmCheese]

Fair enough - Since Cooper himself collaborated on the Steyr, then that, and only that, could be considered a "true" scout rifle. (Or was that the Ruger?)

I feel Ruger missed the mark on a few things trying to cater to more 'tacticool' crowd. Most of the time I see a GSR they have traditionally mounted high magnification scopes, 10 round magazines, and a non-ching sling carry strap. I feel a lot of people buy them because with the 'big' magazine and the flash hider it's aesthetically an easy cross over from shooting black rifles.

One thing I think the Steyr got wrong was being box magazine fed. It's not that I dislike box magazines, but I feel they are not inline with what Cooper wanted. I'm guessing that Steyr did want to put out a modern looking rifle that relied on such 'antiquated' technologies as stripper clips. Putting on a magazine cut off was a nice touch though.

In my mind a scout rifle should have a hinged floorplate and be clip fed. I always thought an M48 or M24/47 or 1903A3 action would make for a fine scout rifle, if only I'd bought one when they were $80 bucks.